Anyone hunt with an AR-15?
05-30-2015, 06:26 AM
#21
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Eastern wv
Posts: 3,681
The best shot is when the Deer is relaxed, head down feeding, mostly standing sideways to you. I would take that shot with most any center fire rifle, you don't always get that shot. then you let it walk
I've had them bolt from the slightest sound, your rifle touching a wooden rest or railing, a zipper rubbing together. If they bolt right when you shoot, bad things happen.not the guns fault, you muffed the opportunity
Twigs or a little grass between you and the Deer. That bullet hits an object, even a tiny one, between you and your target, bad things happen.again a no shot situation
The Deer is looking at the rifle and sees the flash. There is something called a withdrawal reflex, it can put an animal in motion before the signal gets processed by the brain. In that fraction of a second it takes the bullet to get from the muzzle to the target, a Deer can be in motion. It only takes a small motion to make a good shot a bad shot.this is really picking at a bare bleached bone
What I'm saying is it isn't all on the marksman, some of it is just luck. If a shot does go slightly wrong, a larger caliber may be the difference between a quick kill and a lingering kill.a gut shot or a broken leg is about the same regardless of caliber
The last long shot I took was right through the ten ring (exactly where I wanted the bullet to go) shooting down hill at 350 yards. I consider myself a passable marksman. My first choice for large game wouldn't be a .223 if I had another option.never said it was best but it is definitely adequate
Maybe I'm just over sensitive to wounding an animal. The guys that own the lease next to mine shoot at anything that moves and aren't very good at it. Weekend warriors, who drink before they hunt, have somebody else gut their kill if they get lucky and leave a lot of wounded game to flee onto my lease. I've tracked down a lot of their mistakes. The guy next door always wants to argue with me about giving the Deer or hog back, I always laugh at him.
I always welcome their donations, it doesn't count on my limit, it counts on their limit (by law here). As a matter of fact, I was the go to guy for tracking wounded game on three leases (and crossovers form neighboring leases), so maybe my perspective is skewed and it seems to me it happens a lot more than it actually does. Say ten to twelve Deer or Hogs a year average, over a 35 year period, adds up to a lot of meat.
I've had them bolt from the slightest sound, your rifle touching a wooden rest or railing, a zipper rubbing together. If they bolt right when you shoot, bad things happen.not the guns fault, you muffed the opportunity
Twigs or a little grass between you and the Deer. That bullet hits an object, even a tiny one, between you and your target, bad things happen.again a no shot situation
The Deer is looking at the rifle and sees the flash. There is something called a withdrawal reflex, it can put an animal in motion before the signal gets processed by the brain. In that fraction of a second it takes the bullet to get from the muzzle to the target, a Deer can be in motion. It only takes a small motion to make a good shot a bad shot.this is really picking at a bare bleached bone
What I'm saying is it isn't all on the marksman, some of it is just luck. If a shot does go slightly wrong, a larger caliber may be the difference between a quick kill and a lingering kill.a gut shot or a broken leg is about the same regardless of caliber
The last long shot I took was right through the ten ring (exactly where I wanted the bullet to go) shooting down hill at 350 yards. I consider myself a passable marksman. My first choice for large game wouldn't be a .223 if I had another option.never said it was best but it is definitely adequate
Maybe I'm just over sensitive to wounding an animal. The guys that own the lease next to mine shoot at anything that moves and aren't very good at it. Weekend warriors, who drink before they hunt, have somebody else gut their kill if they get lucky and leave a lot of wounded game to flee onto my lease. I've tracked down a lot of their mistakes. The guy next door always wants to argue with me about giving the Deer or hog back, I always laugh at him.
I always welcome their donations, it doesn't count on my limit, it counts on their limit (by law here). As a matter of fact, I was the go to guy for tracking wounded game on three leases (and crossovers form neighboring leases), so maybe my perspective is skewed and it seems to me it happens a lot more than it actually does. Say ten to twelve Deer or Hogs a year average, over a 35 year period, adds up to a lot of meat.RR
05-30-2015, 06:45 AM
#22
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Germany/Calif.
Posts: 2,664
and all those guys use a 223, what you describe is not because of any fault of the cartridge or caliber is it? blaming a rifle cartridge for careless and improper shooting of game will not change the opinions of folks who know how to use them. the 223 will make the same energy as a 30/30, with a good deer bullet it will penetrate as well, do you also condemn the use of the 30-30 for a deer cartridge?
RR
RR
I actually think you agree with me and are just trying to argue it to death.
I think a .223 is not the optimum caliber for large game.
Just one example of many would be a wounded hog. Hogs can be tough to put down even under ideal situations. The smaller the hole, the greater the chance the wound is going to close and stop bleeding. No blood trail and finding that hog is going to be tough to impossible.
I've seen guys throw a wild round, sitting at the shooting bench, with a sandbag rest. I guess that qualifies as careless and improper?
In real life it only takes a small mistake to cause a bad shot. You can likely demolish a wall with a tack hammer, a sledge hammer would likely work better. IMO you can mitigate the mistakes somewhat, by using a bigger hammer.
I guess you are saying we can discontinue all those other rifles and ammunition types, because all we really need is an AR 15 in .223? Just kidding.
05-30-2015, 07:39 AM
#23
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: south eastern PA
Posts: 15,546
Lets put this thread in context. The OP is not a hunter, he has an AR 15 and is thinking about hunting. A person who has never hunted big game and wants to use a less than optimal firearm is a different animal than a very experienced hunter who is an expert shot with various calibers and has no self doubt that he can make the shot count. I would advise a new hunter to use a larger caliber than .223 for big game.
05-30-2015, 08:40 AM
#24
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Illinois
Posts: 3,695
my thoughts
I've taken well over 100 deer with a 223, most of them were with standard soft points back in the day before there were deer bullets for them.
any bullet put into the lungs of a whitetail will kill it correct?
so the difference in using a 22 and a larger bullet comes down to having the patience and discipline to take the shot that will avoid the shoulder bone and hit the lungs, its not something the easily excitable hunter should do but it works, and works well.
If you can't hit a deers vitals with a 223, a bigger gun makes it easier? It would make up somewhat for poor shot placement, but who's gonna openly admit I don't shoot well under pressure so I carry the minimum of a 30 cal.
RR
I've taken well over 100 deer with a 223, most of them were with standard soft points back in the day before there were deer bullets for them.
any bullet put into the lungs of a whitetail will kill it correct?
so the difference in using a 22 and a larger bullet comes down to having the patience and discipline to take the shot that will avoid the shoulder bone and hit the lungs, its not something the easily excitable hunter should do but it works, and works well.
If you can't hit a deers vitals with a 223, a bigger gun makes it easier? It would make up somewhat for poor shot placement, but who's gonna openly admit I don't shoot well under pressure so I carry the minimum of a 30 cal.
RR
Just because someone CAN use it and use it well does not in any way mean someone else should.
05-30-2015, 11:58 AM
#25
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Eastern wv
Posts: 3,681
my posts are based on cartridge performance as I know it, ability, patience, woodsmanship and common sense are not possessed by everyone equally.
as far as staying off the shoulder, its common practice to do it with many cartridges to cut down on shot up meat, any 140 gr cup/core bullet from my 7mmSTW place midshoulder on a whitetail at less than 150 yds. will end with an exit hole you can throw a cat through.
why would any hunter intensionally blow both shoulders off of edible game?
BTW chuck, whitetails are considered light, thinned skinned, medium game.
RR
as far as staying off the shoulder, its common practice to do it with many cartridges to cut down on shot up meat, any 140 gr cup/core bullet from my 7mmSTW place midshoulder on a whitetail at less than 150 yds. will end with an exit hole you can throw a cat through.
why would any hunter intensionally blow both shoulders off of edible game?
BTW chuck, whitetails are considered light, thinned skinned, medium game.
RR
Last edited by Ridge Runner; 05-30-2015 at 12:03 PM.
05-30-2015, 12:19 PM
#26
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Illinois
Posts: 3,695
Yeah, It's why I'm a huge fan of big and slow most of the time. Less meat destruction on it's way through the shoulders and spine. Since most of my Whitetail hunting has been limited to here in Illinois the past couple of years I have reacquainted myself with muzzleloadeing. Damn 12g slug gun is murder on the shoulder even with the limb saver tech in the stock. With high shoulder and big and slow, you aren't really taking much meat out and you are dropping the deer fast and easily. Gotta love DRT! Especially when you make Methusalah look like a kid! Couple pounds of meat verses trailing, I'll take the couple pounds of meat for 5 Sir!
Last edited by super_hunt54; 05-30-2015 at 12:22 PM.
05-30-2015, 12:32 PM
#27
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Allegan, MI
Posts: 8,019
my posts are based on cartridge performance as I know it, ability, patience, woodsmanship and common sense are not possessed by everyone equally.
as far as staying off the shoulder, its common practice to do it with many cartridges to cut down on shot up meat, any 140 gr cup/core bullet from my 7mmSTW place midshoulder on a whitetail at less than 150 yds. will end with an exit hole you can throw a cat through.
why would any hunter intensionally blow both shoulders off of edible game?
BTW chuck, whitetails are considered light, thinned skinned, medium game.
RR
as far as staying off the shoulder, its common practice to do it with many cartridges to cut down on shot up meat, any 140 gr cup/core bullet from my 7mmSTW place midshoulder on a whitetail at less than 150 yds. will end with an exit hole you can throw a cat through.
why would any hunter intensionally blow both shoulders off of edible game?
BTW chuck, whitetails are considered light, thinned skinned, medium game.
RR
Last edited by Topgun 3006; 05-30-2015 at 12:35 PM. Reason: Spelling
05-30-2015, 12:41 PM
#28
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: south eastern PA
Posts: 15,546
I use two rifles for deer. A model 88 win in .308 and a Marlin Guide gun in 45-70. With both, my aim point is in the crease behind the shoulder and almost all go down on the spot. Many times I don;t hit a rib and very little meat is wasted. Since I hunt for the meat and not the antlers, that is important to me.
05-30-2015, 12:54 PM
#29
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Allegan, MI
Posts: 8,019
I use two rifles for deer. A model 88 win in .308 and a Marlin Guide gun in 45-70. With both, my aim point is in the crease behind the shoulder and almost all go down on the spot. Many times I don;t hit a rib and very little meat is wasted. Since I hunt for the meat and not the antlers, that is important to me.
05-30-2015, 02:17 PM
#30
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Germany/Calif.
Posts: 2,664
I use much the same as Oldtimr does, .308 for Hogs and Deer, all the way up to Moose and Red Deer. I have a 35 Remington (9mm/200 grain) I use for brush country and I occasionally I use my slug gun when tracking wounded Hogs.
I have a .223 (actually 2) and using them on anything other than varmints has never crossed my mind. I'm not a newcomer to the .223, I shot my first maybe 45 years ago. Other than the weight of the ammo and maybe recoil a .308 will do everything a .223 can do and do it better and farther. There is little to no ballistic improvement of the .223 over the .308. Out to maybe 300 yards the ballistics are very similar.
I have a 30 06 I rarely shoot and a combo gun 12 gauge over 7X54 R I use occasionally. I also have a .222 that has been with me forever.
My .223's and .222 are mostly dust collectors. Mainly because they have been replaced by my .308, which does everything they will do and does it better, even on varmints.
Ammo is cheaper for the .223. I load my own so the cost for the larger caliber isn't that much of a factor.
I have a .223 (actually 2) and using them on anything other than varmints has never crossed my mind. I'm not a newcomer to the .223, I shot my first maybe 45 years ago. Other than the weight of the ammo and maybe recoil a .308 will do everything a .223 can do and do it better and farther. There is little to no ballistic improvement of the .223 over the .308. Out to maybe 300 yards the ballistics are very similar.
I have a 30 06 I rarely shoot and a combo gun 12 gauge over 7X54 R I use occasionally. I also have a .222 that has been with me forever.
My .223's and .222 are mostly dust collectors. Mainly because they have been replaced by my .308, which does everything they will do and does it better, even on varmints.
Ammo is cheaper for the .223. I load my own so the cost for the larger caliber isn't that much of a factor.