22 revolver cylinder
12-23-2014, 09:31 AM
#11
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Kansas
Posts: 3,903
Oldtimr and Topgun kinda poked at this, but I'll flat ask the question - do you have handgunning experience to suggest that it's not the shooter? Have you ever shot better groups out of a handgun, or is this your first date? 6" groups at 15yrds can be asking a lot for a new shooter.
Improper timing is different than misalignment, and neither can get disregarded, because even though Ruger does make great stuff, lots of folks modify them on their own, and lots of folks run them until the wheels fall off, AND quality control issues DO make it out the door sometimes.
If a revolver is out of time, then a new cylinder CAN sometimes fix it if the timing issue is from a galled/worn/peened indexing ratchet on the cylinder. If it's out of time because the pawl is worn/peened/broken, then a new cylinder will not fix that. The pawl happens more often. Improper timing is a problem if it's too slow at the front end - meaning the hammer is trying to move the cylinder while it is still locked, or too late at the back end, meaning the cylinder does not lock before the single action sear engages, so the cylinder is free spinning when the shot is fired, which can allow for misalignment. Unlocking too early or locking too early is rarely an issue. Timing is VERY easy to check - draw the hammer rearward, if it locks up before the hammer engages the sear or exactly at the same moment, then it's properly timed. Any revolver, even a Ruger, is vulnerable to timing issues, and even normal use will create wear that will eventually slow them down and cause issues. Fast firing, fanning, or even just bad technique of cocking the hammer too fast will accelerate that wear.
If a revolver chambers are misaligned from the bore - which RARELY happens for a Ruger, even if you swap cylinders between two specimen, BUT IT DOES HAPPEN - then it's just plain not safe. This is easily checked with a modified range rod (can't just use a bore sized rod). When the cylinder is locked up, the chambers should be concentric for the forcing cone, or at LEAST the bore of the throat and the forcing cone must be tangential so that the bullet can do its job and forcefully line them up without shaving part of the bullet. Any smith should have a modified range rod to check this. The brownells range rods don't actually work for this purpose without being modified, since they are fit to the bore diameter, and the forcing cone and chamber throat should be larger diameter.
Recovering some un-damaged bullets would let you know a bit more about the misalignment issue.
But... Improper timing is super easy to check, and will only affect accuracy if it isn't locking up prior to the shot and the revolver is firing when misaligned. Misaligned chambers, whether unlocked or incorrectly machined, will affect accuracy by 'shaving' or 'squishing' one side of the bullet. You'll see this in recovered bullets and by excessive leading in the forcing cone, and even by torching in the barrel from mal-formed bullets letting gasses blow by.
How does your forcing cone look? Is the tennon torched? Is the forcing cone pitted, scorched, or leaded?
How are the chamber throats? Can you 'dip' an unfired bullet into the mouth of the chamber (from the wrong end) or does it not fit?
Is there any torch pitting in the bore (usually happens as a streak or a ring)?
How are the cylinder locking notches?
How much rotational shake do you have at lock-up?
Have you tried any different ammo?
The good news is this:
RUGER WILL FIX IT! They carry a lifetime warranty, and if it's shooting that poorly, they'll fix it.
EDIT: Those two new cylinders may not fit safely and you either need to go through the motion to ensure that you have proper alignment, or pay a smith to do so. Most Ruger cylinders drop in within spec, BUT, if you have an issue with your cylinder, it's more likely that you have an issue with your GUN so the new cylinders will have the same problem. You NEED to confirm headspace, bore alignment, b/c gap, and endshake before you put a single round into those, unless you want to run the risk of losing some fingers.
Improper timing is different than misalignment, and neither can get disregarded, because even though Ruger does make great stuff, lots of folks modify them on their own, and lots of folks run them until the wheels fall off, AND quality control issues DO make it out the door sometimes.
If a revolver is out of time, then a new cylinder CAN sometimes fix it if the timing issue is from a galled/worn/peened indexing ratchet on the cylinder. If it's out of time because the pawl is worn/peened/broken, then a new cylinder will not fix that. The pawl happens more often. Improper timing is a problem if it's too slow at the front end - meaning the hammer is trying to move the cylinder while it is still locked, or too late at the back end, meaning the cylinder does not lock before the single action sear engages, so the cylinder is free spinning when the shot is fired, which can allow for misalignment. Unlocking too early or locking too early is rarely an issue. Timing is VERY easy to check - draw the hammer rearward, if it locks up before the hammer engages the sear or exactly at the same moment, then it's properly timed. Any revolver, even a Ruger, is vulnerable to timing issues, and even normal use will create wear that will eventually slow them down and cause issues. Fast firing, fanning, or even just bad technique of cocking the hammer too fast will accelerate that wear.
If a revolver chambers are misaligned from the bore - which RARELY happens for a Ruger, even if you swap cylinders between two specimen, BUT IT DOES HAPPEN - then it's just plain not safe. This is easily checked with a modified range rod (can't just use a bore sized rod). When the cylinder is locked up, the chambers should be concentric for the forcing cone, or at LEAST the bore of the throat and the forcing cone must be tangential so that the bullet can do its job and forcefully line them up without shaving part of the bullet. Any smith should have a modified range rod to check this. The brownells range rods don't actually work for this purpose without being modified, since they are fit to the bore diameter, and the forcing cone and chamber throat should be larger diameter.
Recovering some un-damaged bullets would let you know a bit more about the misalignment issue.
But... Improper timing is super easy to check, and will only affect accuracy if it isn't locking up prior to the shot and the revolver is firing when misaligned. Misaligned chambers, whether unlocked or incorrectly machined, will affect accuracy by 'shaving' or 'squishing' one side of the bullet. You'll see this in recovered bullets and by excessive leading in the forcing cone, and even by torching in the barrel from mal-formed bullets letting gasses blow by.
How does your forcing cone look? Is the tennon torched? Is the forcing cone pitted, scorched, or leaded?
How are the chamber throats? Can you 'dip' an unfired bullet into the mouth of the chamber (from the wrong end) or does it not fit?
Is there any torch pitting in the bore (usually happens as a streak or a ring)?
How are the cylinder locking notches?
How much rotational shake do you have at lock-up?
Have you tried any different ammo?
The good news is this:
RUGER WILL FIX IT! They carry a lifetime warranty, and if it's shooting that poorly, they'll fix it.
EDIT: Those two new cylinders may not fit safely and you either need to go through the motion to ensure that you have proper alignment, or pay a smith to do so. Most Ruger cylinders drop in within spec, BUT, if you have an issue with your cylinder, it's more likely that you have an issue with your GUN so the new cylinders will have the same problem. You NEED to confirm headspace, bore alignment, b/c gap, and endshake before you put a single round into those, unless you want to run the risk of losing some fingers.
Last edited by Nomercy448; 12-23-2014 at 09:35 AM.
12-23-2014, 09:50 AM
#13
Spike
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 42
no didn't rest the barrel on nothing but air. seems like if the cyl. was out of time a little the firing pin would show that by striking off center of the rim. I think more practice and trying different ammo is the key. I have a few other rugers and can do very good with them. A couple autos and a 44 i hunt with, it does good out to about 25 yards on deer and hogs.
12-23-2014, 10:40 AM
#14
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: south eastern PA
Posts: 15,436
When you say the firing pin is striling of center on the rim, what are you trying to say? .22 cal rimfire bullets are meant to be struck on the rim, anywhere on the rim, not the center of the cartridge head.
12-23-2014, 10:48 AM
#15
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Kansas
Posts: 3,903
no didn't rest the barrel on nothing but air. seems like if the cyl. was out of time a little the firing pin would show that by striking off center of the rim. I think more practice and trying different ammo is the key. I have a few other rugers and can do very good with them. A couple autos and a 44 i hunt with, it does good out to about 25 yards on deer and hogs.
Try out some different ammo. If none give suitable results, send it back to Ruger. You'll need to be sure to send it with the correct cylinder, since you now have 3, because they won't work on it if it's marked (or the serial number references it to be) a 22lr and you send it with a 22mag cylinder.
How does your bore look, including the forcing cone? Might throw some lead and/or copper solvent down the bore, let it soak, then give it a good brush out.
12-24-2014, 11:46 AM
#16
Spike
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 42
well i got the new cyl's and put the 22lr in and to me everything matched up perfect. loaded it up with the same ammo and same 15 yard target. It was like shooting a different gun. i put 8 rounds in a 2inch circle, first 4 i hit about 3inches high but all them hit in same spot and two over marked each other then i moved my sight a tad and found the bullseye. i put the cyl that came with the pistol back in and shot it 6 times and i went back to a 8inch group so im pretty sure that cyl has some kind of issue. thanks for all the reply's.
12-24-2014, 12:21 PM
#18
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: south eastern PA
Posts: 15,436
Good to hear. A little advice, always wear earplugs, even for standard .22 cal. Noise damage is accumluative. My ears hiss 24/7, I wear hearing aids that play tones to help ignor it. Hear plugs and ear muffs are cheap compaired to hearing aids.
12-24-2014, 12:58 PM
#19
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Allegan, MI
Posts: 8,019
Amen on the earplugs! I lost part of my hearing in my left ear from not wearing them until quite late in life seeing as how I started in 1953 when I was 6. As was stated, it's a cumulative thing and all of a sudden you start noticing when the wife says you're talking too loud, LOL! For at least the last 10 years or more I also wear them when I'm cutting grass because that's another continuous noise that will get you sooner or later.
