A noticed trend
 

In the high power hunting rifle department I have noticed a trend to use really, and I mean really powerful cartridges. When I was a kid, we hunted deer with a 30-30 and never had a problem killing a deer. My uncle elk hunted with a 30-30 and took a nice bull at 80 yards, and never thought twice about it.

When I booked my first elk hunt in 1985, the guide got upset when he discovered I was going to hunt with a 30-06 742 Woodsmaster Carbine made by Remington. So much so in fact, I went and purchased a Ruger M77 in 7mm mag which was kind of the real power rifle back then. The elk I shot, I could have killed with my uncles 30-30.

Do you think some people are just going to real extremes with some of these calibers. For instance the old 45/70 was a great big game cartridge, but now they have these 300, 338, and all sorts of other calibers. Are they going to these large powerhouse calibers because they feel the need to shoot that powerful of a cartridge, or is it because it stretches out their potential effective range?

Lets say your going on a moose hunt. What caliber rifle would you take? and why?

I cant say I see much of a trend for using guns like the .338 where a .270 would be plenty but there's definitely a trend to ultra flat shooters like the 7mm RUM.Myself I think it's ridiculous to shoot such inefficient cartridges.

In the ole' days most hunter used a .30-30 or a .30-06, because that's what was available not only in rifle calibers but in readily available ammuntion.

They still kill as good as they did, in fact maybe better due to bullet construction.

However, some guyz want the latest stuff out there..................each to their own !!!

I have no problem with people using the new calibers out there. But you talk to some of them and they are under the impression that the old calibers did not work. Which is just not true. I too, fell for that idea and got a 7mm mag. Great caliber, but is it really that much better then a 30-06 I owned? My Dad hunted many years with a WWII 7.7 ***anese Arisaka Model 99 bolt rifle. Basically a .308. And he dropped deer with that thing out to 200 yards like no ones business. The problem with his rifle is Norma made the ammo and it was expensive. So Dad only hunted with it.

The reason I made this post, the other day a friend came to my house and wanted to show me a new rifle he just purchased. Now remember, we hunt deer in Wisconsin. And it was a 300 Winchester Mag bolt action rifle. Beautiful rifle mind you. The funny part is, he broke out some shells for it... ($32.00 a box he said.. does that sound right?) And then we shot it at my range. The 100 yard target I figured would be a piece of cake for him. But almost immediately I noticed.. he was flinching. He was anticipating the recoil. And I swear I think he shut his eye on one of them, like he was expecting to be socked in the eye. And I thought.. why not a 270 or a 243 even a 308. All of them are much kinder on the shooter. But I bragged up his rifle for him. When he left I told him to leave the grizzly bears alone. We both laughed about that.

Can't blame any caliber/cartridge on bad marksmanship.

Nothing can replace practice !!!

IMO - 90 % of poor shooting is from never having learned/practiced the basics.

IMO - 90% of the people who flinch is from percussion not recoil; ear plugs plus ear muffs and start over with a lighter caliber.

I agree. There are an awful lot of people out there that shoot very little, if at all, during the year and then get out old Betsy a day or two before the season, shoot and hit a paper plate at 50 yards and call it good. Ones who then go out and miss or wound an animal then read about all these big boomers, as I call them, and think if they buy one of those all they need to do is hit the animal and it's katy bar the door! The friend of Cayugad is similar to what I'm talking about because he probably was flinching with the caliber compared to his 30-06. I have 22LR, 22 mags, and a 22 Hornet for real small stuff, a .243 for bigger stuff up through antelope, although it will do well on deer if you know how to shoot. I also have a 25-06 that I like for antelope and deer, but most of the time I deer hunt with one of several 30-06s and I always go to them for elk. The only reason I see for those 300s, 325s, 338s, etc. is for some really long range hunting out West where a 5 or 6 hundred yard shot might be your only chance at an animal based on the terrain and then I'd be stretching the 30-06 further than I would want to. I won't shoot anything past about 350 yards any more and it's mostly because of my eyes and not because the rifles I have won't go well past that distance effectively.

New hunters or experienced hunters w/other weapons are coming into rifle hunting all the time.The gun companies and marketers need to justity new models/calibers to keep interest and profit alive.With all the new short mag/ultra mag cartridges getting the most press,less is heard and understood about old reliable favorites.The first time rifle buyer simply has too many choices.They may conclude that rifles getting all the press must be the weapon necessary.The new shooter,even when told, may not understand about recoil until the reality of shooting the said caliber.Suddenly the light comes on and the shooter realizes there's a price to be paid.
In answer to the moose question,I would use a .280 RS w/a good bonded core 160 gr. bullet.That's what I have and don't doubt it for a minute.

[B]Can't blame any caliber/cartridge on bad marksmanship.

Apparently the newer breed of elk and deer have acquired Kevlar skin....

If my .270 won't kill it...it's likely more than I will consume anyway.

Nope it won't. Don't get ME wrong,,but 1,000 yds. aint hunting.

It comes down to matching the tool to the job.

If you are elk hunting in an area where a 100 shot would be long then by all means take the 30-30. It will work as good as anything.

If you are hunting elk where the shots could range from 0 to 400 yards then take a more powerful cartridge like a 30-06 or 300 win mag.

If you are like RR and prefer to hunt in an area where you could take 500 - 1000+ yard shots then take an even more powerful cartridge still. Something like a .338RUM, .338 Lapua, .300 RUM.

I don't shoot 1000 yards like ridgeruner but my 300 ultra mag makes 500 yard shots a no brainer.

I can bang a 16"X16" target at 540 yards with my 300 ultra mag all day long and 400 yards is a breeze. I can't do that with my 30.06.

To each their own.

This coming year, my hunting rifles are already set. I'll be hunting with a 300 RUM, 30.06, 25.06, .223 and a 22LR.

The Trend I've been seeing is a lot of Hunters get caught up into the hype of using a .300,.300 Win Mag and so on and think they need to get one too....then they end up selling it for a lot less money so they can buy a Rifle they can handle and afford to buy ammunition for...unless of course they can re-load?

I live in Missouri and we don't usually go out and make a 400-500 or a 1000 yard shot,sorry but most live in a dream world and personally the closer I let the Deer come to me the bigger the rush and easier I can see what the Buck looks like,does he have a decent rack is he within the limits of what we shoot etc...?



A good Accurate Gun with minimal recoil that A Person can shot well,accurately and knows it limits is better off taking out to Hunt with than something thats going to make You Flinch while shooting...come on we owe the Animal we hunt some respect and we should make a quick and Humane Kill.



You better re-check the prices on some of those Calibers and look at a good Recoil Chart to see what works well and efficently.The .270 WSM shells were running around $35.00-$40.00 a box of 20 shells and I bet the .300 calibers are close to that or even more?

I have used a 30-06 Remington for many years and finally bought a Browning A-bolt Hunter in a .243 and have taken many Does and several nice Bucks with it,the last 2 years I Hunted with a 7mm-08 and simply love it also.....even went out and bought some 125 grain Managed Recoil shells for my other Bolt-action 30-06 and have the felt recoil like a .243 Rifle...talk about impressed and the great groups at the Range!

I'm not Knocking those Hunters/Shooters that can shoot 500-1000 yards,if You have the right Rifle and practice with it to be accurate out to that far of a distance...more Power to You,its just not my cup of tea!

i use a 1951 721 06 and if in the brush i still use a 1894 30-40 krag.if i cant kill what im hunting with them then i dont need to be hunting period.the biggest magnum isnt gonna make any difference if you cant shoot.and anyone telling me i cant kill an elk at 300 yrds with my 06 is mistaken.

you cant hit at 400 with an 06?

Trend
 

People watch hunting shows and believe the hyperbole. If my shooting range is any indication I believe those that haven't grown up hunting watch a show and believe they need a Howitzer to kill a 125 lbs. field dressed whitetail in my area. The people that ask my advice after seeing me shoot are advised to go pick up a 270 Win. and call it a day. Spend your money on a good rifle and scope combo buy some ammo like Core-Lokts or Power Points sight the rifle in correctly and learn how to shoot properly. I've showed quite a few novices how to display trigger control & place shots accurately. Also, allowed a couple to fire a group from my 25-06 at a target and have took some pleasure in showing these individuals that a 117 gr bullet punishes you a whole lot less than a 180 gr. out of the 300 Win Mag & that if you place a good shot the deer is just as dead when shot with the .257 caliber bullet. But like the rest of the world common sense seems to have no place in society these days.

I live in Wisconsin and chose to go with a 7mm08. Basically it's on par with the .270, and the 30-06 which are more traditional calibers. It's lighter kicking with a flatter trajectory than them, not that it really matters where I hunt.

It's a gun I can shoot any game I will realistically hunt with in the lower 48 at 200 yards or less. I sight in for 100 yards because it makes sense. Even in big timber country 100 yards can be a long way to shoot through brush. Get up in a stand, and 150 yards is about as good as it gets.

I suppose if I hunted farmland where you could have longer shots, the 250-300 yard ones, then I would practice at those distances. I don't though. No need to.

Honestly, I could have gotten a .243, or 25-06, and would be just as effective at taking whitetail deer. They aren't all that tough. The whitetails taken by my Father and Uncle with their .243s are just as dead as the ones I've taken with my 7mm08, or the .270s and 30-06s that we used to use. Even the .44 my Father has, has taken many deer with ease.

Honestly, I have no desire to go with a more powerful gun. With the partitioned round I use, it's almost too much power.

However, if I was going to go out west, then I would have to make a decision. I may choose to get a more powerful gun should that happen. Even if it did not, I would get a better scope. I have a nice scope for Wisconsin. Not one with a lot of magnification, but great clarity and durable. I would prefer one with better magnification for out west.

I tailored my firearm to my needs. I didn't go crazy like some people do. I've had some people tell me that using anything smaller than a .300 RUM is reckless. Even here in Wisconsin... They believe the BS that is being fed to them.

I personaly take pride in my hunting ability. I have never had to make a shot over 250 yards on a big game animal. I shoot alot of long range and have long range guns but I do it on the range and on the prairie dog fields. There are too many variables when it comes to shooting at extended ranges, bullet drop is a constant but wind drift isnt. If you have ever hunted in the mountains you know what I am talking about. You get thermals and cross winds which you cant see or feel because it might be calm where you are at and even calm were the animals at but there is alot that can be happening in the 600-700 yards between the two of you. I have more respect for the sport and the animal to risk wounding it just to brag what a shot I made. It doesnt take a hunter to shoot a animal at 500+ yards, it takes a marksmen. I guess archery and muzzleloader hunting would be totally out of the question for some of the guys on here. People should work more on developeing better hunting skills than to rely on there weapons capabilty. Money will buy you the equipment but cant buy the nessasary skills to be a effective hunter.

A 7-08 has flatter trajectory than a 270? LoL You learn something new everyday... I carry both and reload for both.... Better bullet choices for the little 7.... but dont try to make it something it isnt.

Actually if you check out the ballistics of the 7-08 with a 145gr. Speer boattail bullet versus the 270 with a 130gr. Speer boattail you will see that the 270 is only about 4-5" flatter at 500 yards but the 270 has less energy at that yardage than the 7-08. It isnt enough difference to notice in a real world hunting situation, it is less difference than the size of a beer can, not enough to notice unless you are shooting with perfect conditions off of a bench. I will take the 7-08 any day, less recoil and muzzle blast, A shorter gun and much better bullet selection. I have a 270, not really impressed with it, I perfer my 280, a much better round in my opinion.

The bullet I use in my 300 drops 12 inches at 400 yards. The bullet I use in my 30.06 drops 24 inches at 400. Can I make the shot with 30.06? Sure i can but why would I?

I live in middle of a huge metroplex. Practicing at distance is not an easy thing for me. I have to drive over 100 miles to practice at the rang where I can shoot out to 540 yards. I get out there a couple of times a year if I'm lucky.

I don't care what other people shoot but why should you guys care if whe choose a magnum. This kind of thread always cracks me up.

Personally I prefer close in and personal and do a lot of bowhunting. However, if someone has the skill, equipment, and the place to hunt at long range it is none of my business. If I had the chance I would love to hunt at long ranges. To me it would be a heck of a challenge.

Now you're a better hunter because you don't shoot a magnum??? LMFAO!!

I've killed 4 bulls that if you added up the total distance of all 4 shots it would be less than 100 yards. My longest kill on an elk was 175 yards with a 30.06.

If I had to give up every kind of hunting but one, I'd put the rifle down and do it with my Bowtech.

I like getting close but still like to carry a magnum.

You guys have no idea how stupid you sound when you bash other guys for the way they hunt or the tool they choose to do it with.

X2 I'd love to have the skills Ridge Runner has.

I'd love to go to one of the long range shooting schools but I don't have the time.

I can't even grasp the concept of long range hunting. The longest shot I've ever taken was last year. It was a mere 120 yards.

Most of the shots I've taken have been 50 yards or less.

I can't even imagine what some of the heavier hitting rounds would do at those ranges. Nothing pretty unless they would be through and throughs which would be bad.

I get the short range shots while hunting public land to boot. I cant imagine trying to hunt the wide open spaces of the west. When hiking out there, the distances you can see...

The purpose of this thread was not to tell anyone what to shoot or hunt with. I could care less what you use. But when my friend showed up with a caliber made to drop elk, moose, bear at some extreme distances .... when he might get a 150 yard shot where we live.. I was surprised. He's willing to put up with the recoil, the cost, and would it cause more meat damage? Now I hunt with a muzzleloader, and am often told I am crazy. But that is what I hunt with, even in the modern season. So like I said.. hunt with what you like.

I have shot some extreme distances with the 7mm mag. And it kind of amazed me I could shoot that far. I have taken game at over 500 yards with the 7mm mag. But it was not something I would recommend or do every day. But do those that hunt with the large magnum calibers do so for longer distance capabilities, more knock down, both, or is it just because its a newer and ballistic better cartridge?

The load I use in my .308 presently drops 118" at 600 yards. We shoot tennis balls in full-value winds up to 15 mph. At 800 yards, it drops 230", but I can still hit a 10" steel gong in the same wind. It doesn't go subsonic until a shade past 1300 yards. Can I make the shot with .308? Sure I can, and why wouldn't I?

Here's why I wouldn't - in spite of what a lot of people think, the west isn't necessarily one vast beanfield. There's this thing called terrain. On this terrain are often trees. Lots of trees. The combination of the two often leave you with practical shots of 200 yards and often significantly less than that. Yes, there are exceptions, particularly when you're hunting pronghorns. If you think you need a "magnum" to kill a speedgoat, ... well, Im not even going to say it.

If you don't care about what other people shoot, you shouldn't be all that concerned about what they think about what you shoot, should you?

I feel like caliber is just a "pissing contest" nowadays. I have many friends who have to have the newest best rifles and gear and they never kill deer. I am only 21 years old but very experienced whitetail hunter. I have used a Marlin 336 .30-30 since I started treking the woods. I have never had a problem harvesting a deer out to 160 yards. It all comes down to marksmanship I think really. Be comfortable shooting your rifle and practice long range shots.

Well, you do have to use a bit of common sense in selecting a caliber and projectile, but for the most part, good marksmanship will consistently contribute more to successful hunts than will simply opting for a larger caliber. A guy who gut-shoots a deer with a .243 will gut-shoot a deer with a .30-378. Chances might be higher that the deer will trip on its own intestines and fall down faster with the .30-378, though.

It's one thing to be a competent marksman with a larger-caliber rifle. It's another if you're picking your caliber for "wow factor" at the range or because you THINK it's going to cure what you've been unable to do with "lighter" chamberings. You don't go chasing moose with a .22 Hornet necessarily, but you don't need to pulverize whitetails with .300s (exc Savage) or .338s, either - unless you can TRULY exploit their long-range advantages. What lots of guys consider "long-range" (400-500) is often chump change for those calibers, though - and often well within reach of boring old standards like the .30-06, .270, etc.

Don't just practice long range shots, practice shots at all ranges you expect to shoot from, and practice from the position(s) you most likely think you'll find yourself in. I think you have this covered.

I've seen an ugly trend too. It's not that some calibers are too big. There's really no such thing. But when you have 20 clients a year and maybe one or two show up with a standard caliber they use where they live and the rest are packing a brand new Ultra Mag, Warbird, or some other super sized magnum case it's a bit depressing. They either can't shoot them very well or have no practical knowledge of the cartridge it's self. I'm standing right here telling you guys I've seen more animals wounded with magnum calibers than standard ones because 1 they can't shoot them as well or 2 they don't practice with them as much. I love my standard calibers as much as I love my magnums.

I don't like it when people tell a newbie hunter they need a super magnum to hunt or moose. These people have no practical knowledge of true marksmanship. That is what I call a bad trend. It's not that large caliber's are not a great thing but a lot of hunters that have no experience shooting them need to familiarize themselves with them before hunting with them. But isn't that true with any rifle or caliber. No the worst trend out there today is not the caliber choice it's the simple fact that not that many hunters use a caliber enough to know the trajectories or the personal feel of the rifle, trigger and useage of the optics. That is the bad trend not the caliber size.

You don't need a new rifle to hunt a new species just more time on the range. Unless your talking Kodiak's or Cape Buffalo that's pure common sense.

For a lot of use 500-600 yards is a far piece of shooting. For those that go beyond that range I think a few are capable of pitting the ace at 1000 yards but most are just blowing hot air. That's a whole other world and equipment set up. Any one that has done a lot of cross canyon shooting in the Rockies knows that what the wind maybe doing on this side of the mountain may not hold true on the other side 700-800 yards away.

Blackelk, that's a very good post and I agree.

Homers Brother, your post is just amazing. I'll leave it at that.

I have several magnum rifles for your info, I just have no use to hunt with them.

Nice, you want to trash talk me but when Blackelk says pretty much the same you praise him. Nice!:hail: Maybe you can tell me were in my post did I talk crap about magnum rifles, my favorite rifle is a Remington 700BDL 338 mag. I just dont hunt with it. I stated idiots who have to sling lead at 500+ yards in order to kill game are not hunters, if that offends you I guess you fit the criteria.

Well at least you shoot a good bow.

Why use a smaller caliber? alot of new magnums are stainless and don't rust, and can be alot lighter,

By that token, why not just buy a newer gun in a smaller caliber that is SS? I'm not following your logic here.

Guys that let deer get close and still gut shoot them or blow a leg off or worse shoot deer in face so they save meat, like the 30 caliber hole they would put in the neck will cause their family to starve over a winter,:rolleye0011: are not hunters either. IE...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2VZSedWb8s or deer with arrows stuck in them and gangrene filled bodies ruining another guys hunt. These animals are left to slowly starve to death, suffer horribly or never recovered. More d-bags hunt close cause it's easier. And with mot-o's like "If it's brown, it's down!" It flies it dies, it runs it's done, Or don't worry the mexican air force (buzzards) will track it down. Those are real classy hunters your backing.

That
-Jake

Fritz, I'm not going to argue on this with you anymore. I know you are a good dude but you are stubborn on this subject.

RidgeRunner is not an idiot and I'd bet $1000 bucks that if he lived next door to you, you guys would be buds.

I know that there are magnum owners that can't shoot them for chit. There are also .270 owners that couldn't hit the barn wall from inside the barn.

"the main thing we strive for is to legaly enjoy the sport of hunting, and thats what I do."

Although I agree, I'd be inclined to suggest that the trend doesn't stop there. It often results in a propensity to use money to switch the equipment, rather than use time and patience to address the lack of familiarity on the part of the shooter.

It certainly is. However, the fundamentals of marksmanship (and that sane "familiarity") remain no less a requirement, in fact moreso.

Partly I think people just want to have different rifles. They want new toys. I like to hunt elk. My .30-06 has been pretty successful so far, killing the elk I shoot at with one shot. Even so . . . I have a hankering to get a .338 winchester magnum. Do I need it? No. Would I stand down from an elk hunt because I could only take my .30-06? Certainly not. Do I still want it? Yes. But I don't want it fiercly, I don't want it enough to forgo other activities -- I wouldn't skip an opportunity to go elk hunting one season and redirect the money to the rifle.

I think it is that people want new toys. Simple motivation.