Small bores for big game
 

I ran into a fellow from Kentucky that insisted that a .17 or a .22 was all he, or any compitent shot ever needs for deer or bear. Now I believe it is not trying to use the little tiny needle blowers that makes hunting a challange, it is hunting it self. Use an approprate tool for the task. Using small stuff like that guy recomends is at best an ego trip for one wanting admiring glances. He ain' t going to get them here!!!! Using cartridges such as those .17 and .22 for deer and such is like trying to pound in a nail with a spoon. Not that it can' t be done but not the right tool. In addition to that, stuff can happen when hunting and small light calibers are asking for wounded and lost game. This is not a consilation prize and no self respecting hunter would consider using such cartridges for big game. These cartridges have their place but it is not in big game hunting. If these light weights are all one needs I would like to see their promoters use them on somthing that will stomp or eat them if things don' t work out just right!!!! Cape Buff, Lions, oh yes Leopard, and Brown bears also kome to mind.


Your Friend
Jud

RE: Small bores for big game
 

I guess it depends on what .22 you are talking about. I would never use a 17 caliber on anything bigger than coyotes but a fast 22 with a heavy, properly colstructed bullet like a barnes or nolser partition would be fine for deer up to a certain point. Wouldn' t cross my mind to use one on bears though.

Called a vet out to put a horse down a couple of years ago and he brought a 44 to shoot it in the head instead of a needle. He told us that he use to use the .22 long rifle and it worked just as good as the 44 but people kept questioning him so he skips all of the questions and comments now.

RE: Small bores for big game
 

it also depends on the game laws , for example , in certain state' s , ( and i do believe that pa is one of them ) it' s illegal to use a .22 caliber or smaller for big game hunting :D
( but , the new .17 caliber has just been legalixed for small game use here in pa . ) :D

RE: Small bores for big game
 

The 17' s AREN' T deer rifles...whether you' re talking about the centerfire or not.

I' ve killed deer with a 223 in WV (Legal there) and it was acceptable. However, it was a shot-choosing deal. The situation had to be perfect for me to do that.

I would not call the 22 cals good for deer hunting. I' d stick with calibers 243 and larger.................

RE: Small bores for big game
 

When did PA change ? .. They have always been any caliber as long as it is centerfire. I was looking to buy my daughter a 223 to start ..Bill

RE: Small bores for big game
 

I don' t care what flavor of 22 cal it is. They are not, never were, nor never will be a deer cartridge much less anything bigger. 243 Win should be the legal minimum in all states and if a kid can' t handle it they shouldn' t be shooting at deer. Just my opinion on the matter. I have seen too many deer ruined with 223' s and 22-250s.

RE: Small bores for big game
 

I will agree with frizzellr. And if you want to raise the minimum to .257 that would be o.k. too. Or better yet states with big game other than deer should have limits on caliber per species. Look at Wyoming and other Rocky Mtn states you can hunt elk with a .243!!! I haven' t seen a post were hunters have used one, but they are out there.

RE: Small bores for big game
 

This topic comes up from time to time and there are always strong feelings on both sides and no one is going to change anyones mind.I think it could partly be influenced by regional areas also.Up north here the mature whitetails run from 185-300# live weight and cover is thick to say the least,cut-overs,regrowth,and dark growth tend to keep shots close and you don' t always get a picture perfect broadside shot offered.Couple this with black bears available at the same time and those small calibers aren' t very appealing to say the least.Some hunters I am sure will pass on any shot at an angle or position that don' t give a clear shot at the behind the shoulder H&L area but others may not want to pass a big mature buck just because conditions aren' t perfect and so the little calibers aren' t for them.Our hunter success ratio is about 8-10% on mature bucks and its not unusual to hunt several weeks or even the entire season without even seeing one to shoot so I don' t want my caliber limiting me to certain picture perfect positions before I can shoot,its too hard to see them at all.IMHO I think 100grs bullet weight and 24 caliber are the minimum I would consider adequate for northern bucks and bears and then only in the hands of experienced and discplined shooters not new beginning kids and hunters.A 260 or 7mm-08 will do a much better job and can be handled by even recoil sensivitive shooters with a decent recoil pad and lighter bullet weights.Will a 22 CF kill deer?Of course but its not about how small in caliber you can go and still kill,its about clean and fast kills often under less than perfect shooting conditions with Murphys law in full effect.I' m sure in western and southern areas where its more open and live deer weights are more in the 120-150# area without other larger game in season at the same time it may be a different call.

woods

RE: Small bores for big game
 

I know a number of guys who kill deer every year with .223' s or 22-250' s, but they hunt open farmland and shoot the deer in the head. They are pure meat hunters and do quite well at it. But for general woods use or body shots, I think the .243 is an absolute minimum. It is amazing that some folks who would say never, ever use a 22 caliber, think the .243 is an amazing deer cartridge.

RE: Small bores for big game
 

I do agree that 22 are not the best for deer but with good bullets (barnes X) and a properly placed shot (chest) They will go down .. Any animal needs a heart and lungs to live. My daughter is small and reciol is hard on her. If I sit with her and help her with proper shots she will be fine... I would rather teach her to pick the good shots and use a 22 then have her not hunt at all .. It will be on our land where there are no other people so " rush shots are not needed .. Bill

RE: Small bores for big game
 

Uh oh, do we have to go back to my survival post? comparing a 22 and a bow and arrow?

You know alot of fellers in KY, (where I was born and bred) do the neck shot thing. I don' t. They are so concerned about meat, thats all they care about. The guys I know do this, do this extreamely effectively. Some killing 20 deer a year. Never losing one. And they are using 17Remingtons and 22-250' s and 223s. The ones I know that do this are the best blood trackers I have ever seen. And they arn' t there hounds sure are.

For a guy like me, nope, I need a bigger hammer to drive in that nail. For guys that take it seriously as them, they have a little more time on there hands and are better skilled hunters than I am.

Guys, your forgetting, velocity kills. And a neck shot with a 22-250 is pretty devastating and leaves a hell of a blood trail.

You can' t blanket one case (deer hunting in general) with one statement like " They are not, never were, nor never will be a deer cartridge much less anything bigger" concerning this subject. Not everyone has the same skill or patience. I know my limitations, and know its not for me. I am lucky to bring home 5 or 6 deer a year not counting crop damage deer. (which I am doing this weekend, can' t wait)

I bet ya, if a feller hunted with a 223, and lost several deer he would go out and buy a 30-06. But lets say the guy recovered all the deer with no problem. Why change????? Because you can' t use that gun effectively??? Think about it.

RE: Small bores for big game
 

Not again!!!!!
.22' s of any kind, are not deer calibers, and should be illeagal everywhere!
Anyone who cannot handle a .243' s recoil, shouldn' t be playing with guns anyway!
As for head and neck shots, no they' re not against the law, just plain unethical!
You' d lose less meat with a heart/lung shot than with a neck shot, plus you have about 500% more room for error!
Again, you get no extra points for smallest caliber, or for shooting out the eyeballs without disturbing the eyelashes!!!
You want a challenge with your small calibers, shoot prarrie dogs at several hundred yards, or try for .25 groups on paper, but when you go deer hunting, use a deer rifle!
We owe the deer this much respect at least!

RE: Small bores for big game
 

No, because it was irrelevant then and it is irrelevant now. We aren' t talking about survival. We are talking about hunting.

RE: Small bores for big game
 

Teach the youngen' s how to shoot with the .222, .223, .22-250, etc, then move them up to the .243 win, .250 savage, 6mm rem, .257 roberts.

I don' t know what the recoils #' s are on these rounds but there is not that much differance between the .243 and the .22-250, .220 swift. and you gain a MUCH better round for the job. Better yet a nice short carbine in 7.62x39 or the .44 mag would be also ideal for kids. When you are starting them out they should not be taking shots much past 100 yds. These rounds will work for that distance and a little beyond, plus the margin for error is greater because of the bigger bullet.

RE: Small bores for big game
 

Hunting is hunting. These guys always gets thier animals, that your statement totally irrelivent. You knew if you answered you would use the 22-250 and not the bow, then you saying a bow is not enough for hunting deer. And that my friend is totally bogus as a bunch of people in the bowhunting forum will educate you on. Most serious bow hunters I know are twice the hunters that gun only people are. Not all but most.

Now, I don' t shoot deer in the head of neck, but why is this unethical. You guys are confusing. Alot of people including myself likes to heart to eat. Jag, I don' t think these people are looking for a challenge. They are more effective than your average hunter with these calibers.

RE: Small bores for big game
 

You are comparing apples to oranges again. The comparison is invalid and you know it if you are the bowhunter you claim to be. Using a razor sharp blade to hemorrage an animal to death is alot different than relying on hydrostatic shock and tissue displacement caused by a bullet. BTW, I bowhunt.

RE: Small bores for big game
 

Well, true, I am not that good of a bowhunter, but give it all I got and love it the most next to riding motorcycles. And can' t wait until Sept. 15. I disagree however. I know I could kill a deer with a 22-250 alot more effectively than with a bow at 30 yards. But the bow works for me too within 30 yards without much complaint. Been decently sucessful with it. Thats my personal limit with a bow. And yes, I have lost a bunch of deer with a bow. I knew they were good shots. But do to rain and losing my blood trail or whatever, I never found them. It sucks to no end and stings like a mother. But that doesn' t mean its unethical to use a bow in my opinion. Even though I have lost a lot more deer with a bow than with a gun. You as a bowhunter may have never lost a deer with a bow. And if so, I am glad for you and wish I was lucky as you.

Hey, I am just striking up something for people to think about during our off season here. 10 years ago I would have been on your side on this issue. But things change, and so does my mind as I get older.

to : 338
 

338 , i checked the pgc website and it doesn' t say anything about them being illegal for use , but as i said i do believe that they are so i kinda miss worded myself and missled you on that one , i appollagize for that , sorry :D:D:D

but my point is make sure you check the lagality of firearms and action types before use :D:D:D

RE: Small bores for big game
 

Comparing hunting to survival, or bullets to arrows is as Frizz said, " comparing apples to oranges."
As to the ethics of head/neck shots, there is NOT ONE justifiable reason to take head/neck shots!
Meat loss? You' d loose more meat on a neck shot than a heart/lung shot!
Animal recovery? Lung shot animals seldom go beyond fifty yards, with a good blood trail to boot! What is the recovery rate for head/neck shots? 100% on " perfect" shots! What of the countless " less than perfect shots" ? Those " assumed" misses would probably bring the recovery rate down to 20% or less!
The fact that those using the .22' s for deer hunting are mostly the same ones advocating head/neck shots, is an admission that they are not using enough gun for the job!
And IF the .22' s are good enough for deer, then why not a head shot on elk or moose too? I' m sure they would go down just as cleanly as a deer would! On a " perfect" shot, that is!
There is just no way to justify head/neck shots and still be called a sportsman!

RE: Small bores for big game
 

JagMan.. That could be the stupidist responce ever ( Anyone who cannot handle a .243' s recoil, shouldn' t be playing with guns anyway!) .. Here you have a Father (me) taking the time to reload good bullets, sit with my kid to show her when and where to shoot. and you say that .. We have enough of a problem nowadays getting kids to even hunt.. So because she doesn' t like the recoil of a 243 she shouldn' t hunt ... I say let her hunt with the 223 to start and move her up as she is comfortable ..Bill

RE: Small bores for big game
 

I don' t condone expert shooters using the .22' s for deer! If you want to get into name calling, letting novice hunters, such as kids use any .22 on deer, thats stupid! Thats asking for crippled game! So what you are saying is if a child can' t handle the recoil of say a 22-250, go on down to maybe a .22 rimfire, just so they can hunt! Let her use a .22 to learn to shoot or on small game. When she can handle a deer rifle, let her move up to a .243 or .257!

RE: Small bores for big game
 

I don' t RECOMMEND a .22 of any kind for game as large as deer. However, as Jack O' Connor' s Indian gude once told him, during a similar debate in a sheep hunting camp in B.C., " Any gun good, shoot ' em good!!"

The Eskimos now use the .222 and .223 almost exclusively, as opposed to their previous selection (the .22 Hornet), and they regularly kill game up to polar bear and walrus with these pipsqueaks!! They are avid reloaders, due to cost of ammo. They don' t lose much game, and they don' t get et up very often, either!! :)

RE: Small bores for big game
 

Still a wounded deer don' t make much of a consolation prize.[:o] Those Eskimos are well skilled at what they are doing and tend to hunt in groups(harder to et that way;)),a lot different with a youngster on their first hunt with a case of the jitters and a less than perfect shot taken at a less than perfect target angle.

woods

RE: Small bores for big game
 

If I lost my legs I could not play football, not that I do but same with hunting. If you can not handly the reciol of an approprate rifle for what you are going to hunt don' t hunt it. Work up to handling the recoil and for a kid let them grow up and grow into it. I would rather tell a child that you got to wait a year or two to hunt deer then follow a blood trail that leads to nothing but heart ach for the child and a lost deer. What do you tell them, so what we will find another to shoot that one will wonder off and die in a few days and feed the coyotes?
Now lets change the picture alittle. Little Johnnie does not like the recoil of a .375 H&H. I know we will have him hunt Cape Buff with his .223 Remington. Hmmmm, good by little Johnnie

RE: Small bores for big game
 

338 , have you considered useing a muzzlebrake , or upgrading to a better more absorbant recoil pad if recoil with heavier calibers is a problem for her ?? :D:D

or have you given the lever action rifles in .44 mag or .41 mag a look ? from what i' ve heard they don' t have a lot of recoil and they are both good for hunting use :D:D

RE: Small bores for big game
 

Guys, I am not sure, maybe didn' t read the posts good enought, but I don' t think anyone was saying give a 22-250 to kids or a concern about recoil. These guys that I know in Ky that do hunt with a 22' s are very experienced hunters. The reason they use them, is they feel very confident in the rifles accuracy, and feel very confident in there skills. Maybe you guys don' t. I may be wrong, but I bet more experienced than most people on here. Maybe I am wrong.

Again I will ask the question, if these people recover their game, what does it matter?????

Jagman, again, I am not actually comparing bows and bullets, but more comparing killing to killing. If an animal is down, he down. He can' t be any more dead. The people I know that hunt this way are usually more successful than the average hunter with the 30-06 or 300win mag.

RE: Small bores for big game
 

You know the old saying you can' t argue with the results, but you don' t have to like the means either.:(

Come on lets leave the .22 centerfires for varmints and coyotes and plinking. Lets shoot a real caliber for hunting.

RE: Small bores for big game
 

Although It would not be my first choice, I know quite a few good hunters who use the 22-250 for deer. There are at least three factory loads for the 22-250 that are intended for use on deer. People who have the disapline to choose thier shots carefully can get by with a 22-250 which is legal where I hunt. I have as much faith in my 22-250 as I do my 243 if not more. I would support a 25 caliber low limit.

RE: Small bores for big game
 

OK doubters .. Here are the ballistics for a .223 and .243 with 70gr. starting 3000 fps. Keeping shots within 100 yds. 223 energy 1072 ft. lbs (keep in mind most other .22 exceed this) .243 1075 ft. lbs (most all .22 exceed this also).. There is .20 difference in bullet size( which is nil.) .. Yes you can get the .243 up too 100 gr. (some .22 even exceed thisft. lbs) which makes some difference but the deer won' t know it .. If you load tough bullets (barnes X) for a .22 it will penatrate just as far or futher then the .243 with a soft point.. .22 work for deer or Alot of states wouldn' t let you use it ..

No I don' t think " johnnie" should use a .223 for cape, It would work. Or do I think a " child" should use a rim fire for deer, Which would also work .. But we are talking deer wich are not hard to kill.. Like I said any animal need a heart and lungs to live .. And a .22 with good bullets has no problem reaching and could even pass .. Bill

RE: Small bores for big game
 

My boy started at twelve with a 243 with 100gr bullets and within two years was shooting a 7mm-08.Using the example that a 22CF is just as deadly as a 243 is pure bunk and skewering the energy numbers to make it seem that way is also foolish(everyone has access to ballistics charts).I know no one that goes out and loads 70 gr bullets to deer hunt with their 243.In fact a 243 hornady load available over the counter with 100 gr pill develops 1790 ftlbs at 100yds,a 70 gr ballistic tip that I' d never use has 1465 ftlbs,and a power point plus 100 gr has 1764 at 100yds.Where in the world are you getting these anemic numbers you quote for the 243 at?Anyway you don' t need to quote skewered numbers to make your point,if you want to use a 223 that barely breaks 1000ftlbs at 100yds and its legal in your state ,have at it.Just don' t expect everyone to agree and applaud your decision as a good one.I for one view 1200 ftlbs at 100yds as on the extremely low side and could never support your choice,especially in a state where if you shoot one and it runs far there is a good chance someone else will be tagging it anyway.

woods

RE: Small bores for big game
 

That' s my point a .22 centerfire is JUST ADEQUATE, not excelleant, good or even fair. Why not use a good-excellant cartridge and no you don' t need to have a magnum to do this.

The .243 is only .020" bigger than the .223 but, when you go from a 70gr .223 to a 100gr or bigger .243 that is 1/3 again more bullet.

While I personally don' t think of the .243 as a excellant deer round, it is most certainly a fair deer round.

I would rather hunt with a crusty old 30/30, with handloads than a .22 centerfire

RE: Small bores for big game
 

Wow, now there is some Gore math if I ever saw it. You might want to refigure that.

RE: Small bores for big game
 

just a question guys , i heard that the .22 centerfires launch thier bullets at velocities so high that the bullets sometimes disintigrate on contact with the big game animals , i had heard this in reference to the old .22 savage high-power round , and that it was the reason for the downfall of the cartridge as it was toated as a big game rifle .

now i know that bullet developement has come a long way since then , but do you foresee this happening with any of our modern bullets today ?? :D:D

and in my opinion , and i' m not trying to step on any toes here but , those guys who are taking big game with .22 centerfires ( which the rounds are capable of doing ) aren' t beginner hunters and probably didn' t start hunting big game with them, they are probably seasoned in hunting and know how to react if a problem should arrise , now i know that a beginner should have something that will build confidence but , a .22 centerfire is more of a specialized round for that application.:D:D

has she or yourself considered a .250 savage ?? they don' t have really any felt recoil , and how about a decelerator pad , the type you wear on your shoulder so that i dampens felt recoil , some hunting clothes come with them allready made into the gear , i think they have them at www.cabelas.com , hope that this might help , and don' t forget better rifle mounted recoil pads , or even muzzlebrakes :D:D:D

RE: Small bores for big game
 

I don' t understand where you get this but I shoot deer in the head and the only justification is that I can do it,and never lost one or had to make a second shot yet,but it depends on the circumstances also.I have taken them inthe head with rifles from 22 to 30/06 and 50 cal muzzleloaders.When I grew up you shot squrrels in the head.If you have never done this how do you know how much meat is lost?
I don' t think this makes me any less sportsman than you are.

RE: Small bores for big game
 

These # came out of the nosler #3 .. My point was not to say the .22 was as good as the .243 that everybody says to use .. just that the .243 was not much better.

As for " Gore math" I did not write it I just copied it out of the book ...

I do not beleive the bullets like the barnes x will blow up like the older bulltes

RE: Small bores for big game
 

The 243 with winchester or hornady over the counter ammo will have more energy at 300yds than the 223 can muster at 100yds.Thats a LOT of difference in my book.With a good recoil pad and a 7-8# gun the 243 is anything but a hard kicker,my point is and always will be that there are MUCH better alternatives to using a 22CF to shoot deer.The 250 savage,243,257 roberts,6.5x55,and 260 all offer very low recoil and with past pads,quality recoil pads,and recoil reducers there is really NO justification to have to go to a far less optimum 22CF for deer hunting and run the chance of having a youngster wound a deer and lose them in the heat and excitment of the moment.That would not be a good way to start your hunting career off.

woods

RE: Small bores for big game
 

I see what you were doing now. You were using a 70gr out a a 243. Try using a 100 gr to get your numbers and you will see a big difference. Nobody I know of uses a 70gr 243 for deer.

RE: Small bores for big game
 

A 70 gr bullet DOWNLOADED to 3000fps so it would compare directly to a 223 not at 3400fps like its currently available in factory ammo in and capable of. ;)

woods

RE: Small bores for big game
 

I once read in interesting piece by Jim Carmichell the shooting editor of Outdoor Life. He was returning from Africa and stopped off to visit a friend in Scotland I believe. The friend invited him to a " hunting club" to cull some fallow deer (which are some what smaller tha most N.A. white-tails). Carmichell did not have a gun of his own along but was told he could borrow a club gun. His choices were a .300 win. mag. and a .222. He figured the .300 was too much and didn' t know if the .222 was enough. He shot the .222 and found it very accurate and of course pleasent to shoot so he chose it. I think he shot a couple fallow deer with it and was very carefull about range and shot placement and very pleased at how well it dispached the deer.
I do not recomend using .22 s for deer (and neather did Carmichell). Just an interesting story.

Robin

RE: Small bores for big game
 

I used a single shot .222 with a 55gr bullet on the buck below which weighed in at 170 pounds. It was the only gun I had at the time. It worked very nicely with a hole in the heart before it lodged in the far shoulder. The deer ran 20-30 yards with a great blood trail and fell quickly. I now own a .270 (also hated by many on this board) which could increase my effective range if only this damn state would let me use rifles around here.

Sure bigger is better, because it gives you more options, but it doesn' t make the smaller calibers worthless.