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Unburned Powder??

Old 06-01-2008, 02:32 PM
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Nontypical Buck
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Default Unburned Powder??

Friday evening I took my new Marlin 1895 45/70 out to the range to get it on target and break in the barrel I was using factory Rem. 300 gr. ammo. I set the target at 25 yds. to start. The first shot out of the freshly cleaned bore stuck low. I adjusted the sights, and swabbed the bore with Butch's Bore Shine. I noticed some funny looking particles sticking to the wet patch. Small, cylindrical in shape, with a grayish brassy look. I finished cleaning the bore, dried it, and took shot # 2. Same thing. I had already checked the bore following the initial shot, and all looked fine. I tapped the empty casing mouth on the bench, and several more of these particles fell out. Same size and color as what was on the patches when cleaning. I fired six single shots, cleaned after each one, and started shooting groups of two and cleaning. Same results each time. By now I was shooting at 100 yds., and the gun was shooting excellent. I mean really good for factory ammo. Three two shot groups...... one with two in the same hole, and the other two groups at just around 1.25". I thought that if the powder wasn't being totally consumed each time, the "groups" would have been much more erratic.
When I got back to the house, I took a tubing cutter and cut open a live round. The powder inside was th normal dark gray color, but the individual grains looked very much like what I was getting on the cleaning patches.
Anyone have any thoughts?? Why would the color change be different if this was actually unburned powder ??
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Old 06-01-2008, 05:38 PM
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Default RE: Unburned Powder??

Well you know Remington doesn't know if that load will be used in an old trapdoor or in a Ruger #1 so it is a weak load and maybe not at the correct burn rate. WIth those cartridges( anyone step in here and correct me if I am wrong) crimp is extremely important ..it might be a fast burn powder and not all of it is being consumed. I'll have to note that the next time I shoot my 45/70 since I have always been a factory ammo shooter in that cartridge.
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Old 06-01-2008, 06:46 PM
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Default RE: Unburned Powder??

You know that pretty interesting. I couldn't tell ya, but first shots thru my marlin was also 300gr rems and they shot bad, I mean bad. But I would like to have seen a chrono of them. See if thier spreads was high or not?
 
Old 06-01-2008, 09:37 PM
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Default RE: Unburned Powder??

Yeah...... I didn't take the Chrony out with me, as all I wanted was to get some barrel break-in and get it on paper at 100 yds. so I could start some load work-up. Would have been nice to see what the spreads were, tho.
I did have some trouble with getting enough elevation with the Vari-X II, and I'm going to have to shim the mount (Leupold base & rings). I ran the scope out of elevation. Still shooting 2" low @ 100, so I"m going to get another box of factory ammo and try it again. Just may set the chrony up and see what it says......
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Old 06-01-2008, 09:50 PM
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Default RE: Unburned Powder??

Hey PA, those factory's are going to be dogs. I would wait until you feed that badboy with 48-52gr of IMR4198 with 300gr sierras or partitions kicking at 2100fps before you shim.
 
Old 06-02-2008, 06:18 AM
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Default RE: Unburned Powder??

I've considered doing just that, bc. The thing is, I've already bought a box of 350 gr. Hornadays to start with, and I'm wondering if the 50 gr. diff. in weight may put me right back in the same elevation mess. I've got .020 stock available, but I'm thinking it may be too much. I'm going to mike some other stuff and see if I can get thinner......like some package plastic or whatever. I understand what you are telling me and I appreciate the help and advice, believe me!
Side note....I went to two auto parts stores looking for brass bearing shim stock. What you used to use years ago when you shimmed up bearings in an engine that was getting too much slop in it. You could get the shim stock in varying thickness. Both places looked at me like I was speaking in a foreign language. Had no idea what I was talking about. Guess people don't do that stuff anymore.
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Old 06-02-2008, 08:29 AM
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Default RE: Unburned Powder??

ORIGINAL: Pawildman

I've considered doing just that, bc. The thing is, I've already bought a box of 350 gr. Hornadays to start with, and I'm wondering if the 50 gr. diff. in weight may put me right back in the same elevation mess. I've got .020 stock available, but I'm thinking it may be too much. I'm going to mike some other stuff and see if I can get thinner......like some package plastic or whatever. I understand what you are telling me and I appreciate the help and advice, believe me!
Side note....I went to two auto parts stores looking for brass bearing shim stock. What you used to use years ago when you shimmed up bearings in an engine that was getting too much slop in it. You could get the shim stock in varying thickness. Both places looked at me like I was speaking in a foreign language. Had no idea what I was talking about. Guess people don't do that stuff anymore.
I too have started going the 350gr flat nose hornady route. I tried 3031, and it shot ok, with only 1800fps with alot of powder. I loaded up some 4198. See if I can get accuracy or velocity improvements.

Keep me informed on your results with different powders.
 
Old 06-02-2008, 06:20 PM
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Default RE: Unburned Powder??

Well, I thought about it for a bit, and decided to try the .020 shim under the rear of the scope mount. Got it installed, and headed out to the range with a .012 shim also. I set the vertical range dial of the scope to midpoint, set up a target at 25 yds., and let go. Right on. Moved out to 100 yds., and fired another group of three and adjusted the scoe a little. Cleaned the barrel and fired the next group of five on a clean target. Still getting particles when cleaning. This group and all previous shots are with factory 300 gr. ammo (Rem). Looks like we've got a keeper...... Hope the handloads work up as well.

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Old 06-02-2008, 06:40 PM
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Default RE: Unburned Powder??

P.S. Gonna have to do something about that trigger!! Man, that thing is TERRIBLE!!!
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Old 06-05-2008, 06:39 AM
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Default RE: Unburned Powder??

Most medium-burning powders like those often used in the .45/70 and other large-volume, straight-sided cases, will evidence incomplete burning when the pressures are kept low enough for use in some of the older rifles, like the trapdoor Springfield. I used to have an Argentine Remington rolling block in .43 Spanish. My load used the Lyman cast 439186 bullet and 45 grains of IMR 4895 for low pressures. Although this load was pretty accurate and gave a MV of 1400 FPS, it left A LOT OF UNBURNED/PARTIALLY BURNED POWDER GRAINS IN THE BORE. Seems like what you are seeing is a similar thing. The slower the powder, the worse it is. But as long as your velocity & accuracy are acceptable, it is no big deal.
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