BULLETS-Dimes bit of difference
 

I read all the posts that hunters put up on the new bullet or the next generation bullet or the best hunting bullet. I also read with interest about how it is the shot that counts. Then other people say you have to have a "better" bullet if you hunt with a 22 caliber. Now I believe Barnes has a new bullet out that costs 2or3 dollars a piece!!

I realize bullet construction is important if you are hunting large or dangerous game(elk sized and up). But for the average day in day out varmint and deer hunter I just do not think these expensive bullets are necessary.

Can someone please explain to me why the plain old Sierra or Hornady hunting bullet is no longer any good? I just can not understand the need to buy these expensive bullets. Heck I kill a bunch of deer every year with a bullet I cast out of straight Wheel Weight. I guess this is wrong also??

Why don't hunters just use an adequate caliber(I consider that to be 30 caliber), with a good bullet and spend their money on a better scope?? If recoil is a problem then shoot something smaller, but not much smaller. Or just load a larger cartridge down.

I read all the posts about hunter's wanting to use the 223 for deer hunting, or the 22 Hornet?? I am pretty sure those are varmint rounds, not deer rounds.

I would like for some one to show me some actual proof that a $2 bullet will kill a deer better than a plain old Siera Game King. Especially when shot out of an adequate deer cartridge, not a diminutive one. Tom.

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Not difficult to aquire a Good Rifle, a Good Scope....and hunt with Good Bullets.

Some delve in results.....I be one.

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Does this mean my lowly core lokts dont kill anymore? :D

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Hunting has so much media poisoning its veins that even the toughest hunters think that they will look cooler with the $45 box of bullets and the newest version of realtree with UV protection.

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How were all those deer killed years back? Must have been a lot of lucky shots with those poor bullets.

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Nothing wrong with a CoreLokt on deer...I've killed about 90 of so with it, out of my .243...When it comes to the .22 centerfires and deer, when you go from say a 55gr bullet made for groundhogs to a 60gr Nosler Partition made for deer then you go from a bullet that fragments to a bullet that mushrooms, stays together and gives full penetration on center lung shots...So it makes the .22 calibers more effective on larger game...

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It's called America! Choices, personal preferences, bigger and better.....etc....

I personally like new technology. I could still be driving to work in my Nova w/ no AC and an eight track but I prefer driving in my new F-150 with AC and Satellite Radio. Nothing wrong with using new technology and there's nothing wrong sticking with the old. But there's no reason to be critical if the other guy does not like the same as you.

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Personal hygiene has come a long way..... most of the old timers just uglied them to death.

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And I thought hevi-shot was getting expensive....

I don't think they are either Tom. There are not too many guns around that won't shoot a Sierra Gameking pretty dang fine. I'm a fan of the Barnes TSX, and now-a-days its what most of my deer are shot with, but thats out of one gun, with one particular load. I just happen to enjoy it a lot. I've got one other Barnes X bullet load which is about dried up (I have three left), and then it and every other cartridge I handload for will either have Hornady SPs or Gamekings for their hunting loads. Why..... cheap, deadly, effective. If you want fine bourbon you can have Elijah Craig or Knob Creek or Bookers or MM. If you just want to get drunk you should try Mad Dog 20/20 or Wild Irish Rose or Boones Farm or 211.

So thats why the economy is the crapper... because you've stopped stimulating it with your free lead! I ought to call your tire center and tell them what that stuff is worth in 25# bags these days :eek:

It'd be impossible to prove. But I can tell you this most definatively.... hunting is what you make it. I'll bet you kinda get a real good feeling when you take a deer with a bullet you made yourself, loaded yourself. They aren't armor plated. The key to a good bullet is putting it in the right spot to do its job. A $2 bullet in the can is worthless... but a worthless lead bullet in the powder keg will net you some fantastic results you can measure in pounds and inches.

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I am not saying you are wrong. Well I am about your F-150. Your F-150 is definitely not new technology.

But I am talking about bullets. What makes this new bullet tecnology better?? That is all I am asking. How can you prove they are better?? Personally I do not believe you can prove they are better, but I am open to suggestions.

And as far as putting a 60 grain partition in a 22 caliber cartridge?? Why?? It still does not make the 22 caliber a deer rifle?? Economics?? Maybe, if you can not afford a second rifle?? But it is definitely not nominal, it is just barely capable. And I honestly doubt the 60 grain partition is any better for deer than what a 60 grain Sierra is?? Or a 75 grain Hornady?? But it definitely costs more.

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SwampCollie please do not call my tire store?? Please?? Tom.

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I hear what you're saying, and agree. In some cases, example.....130gr .270 on antelope, soft points plain old federals SP bullet, almost penetrated too well, went right through, so a premium controlled expansion bullet inthis case is completely unneeded. My friend was using a .243 with some 95gr noslers and those were blowing right through as well. So my point in some cases, a smaller cartridge with plain old, softer squishy bullets may be a better option, dumping its energy in the animal.

IMO plain old factory soft bullets are ideal for softer skin animals where penetration is probably too much as it is. Its that big/dangerous game when premium bullets are considered....though i think all premium bullets are probably almost as good as one another and signifcant step up from plain old soft points, its like going from a 3 to a 8.5-10 either way if that premo bullet is an 8.5 or a 10, its still better than a 3.

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I'll not trade my Crummy for a horse either...

The X is simply better at dealing death...............

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Unfortunately in todays way of thinking hypervelocity magnums and a lot of them are in the hands of novice shooters and hunters. I would imagine a lot of guys go up some tree in November armed with a 300 ultra mag and shoot a little ole deer at 100 yards(maybe) with some load going 3300 fps. Unfortunately the bullet will probably hand grenade at that speed and destroy a lot of deer in the process. A premium bullet will at least save some meat not a whole lot but probably more then 2 dollars worth that the darn bullet costs. Now you take that same cartridge and shoot something at 300-500 yards and that bullet will be more thenadequate.Sensible calibers are all that are needed for Deer but a lot of guys and especially newer market brainwashed shooters don't know the difference and somehow feel handicapped by a lesser cartridge.

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The X allows the use of a lesser chambering yet still net velocity and flatter trajectory.......

Win/win...............

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The longer I hunt with more expensive bullets the less I think they are needed for game like deer. I actually have had quicker kills with the standard stuff than the new premium bullets. I think the premium stuff is just constructed too well the expand well on relatively thin skinned game like deer. They seem to zip right thru like full metal jacket bullets and the deer will not drop as quick as they do with the cheaper stuff that seems to expand better inside the deer.

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I've always said, and still do that a premium bullet is not needed for deer or similar animals. A well placed 'standard' bullet will put any deer down provided it is shot from a rifle of adequate size. Don't get me wrong, the premium bullets like Barnes, NOsler Accubonds, Hornady Interbonds, Swift, etc, have their place. I believe one of these should be used on heavy skinned, big boned animals where penetration is critical. But for deer, no way. Even though am older, I am not agains technology - when it is required. But I lost count of how many deer I have taken with the old reliable Hornady Interlock bullets.

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So by your ExpertLogic an 85g .243 X, or a 100g .257 Xis better suited for Big Bear, Moose,and such, and has no place in Deer Killin'.....

Compelling...........

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Horse Puckey. I have shot X-Bullets. I was around when they came out. I had to have them-just like everybody else. Until I shot them. Some were accurate, and some were not. And a lot of them did not expand at all. Caliber hole in, and caliber hole out. So Horse Puckey. And if they are so great---aren't they being discontinued?? For what-something new and improved?? Or is that more marketing spin??

So far every one has tried to explain what a premium bullet is(or what they think it is), but no one has offered a dimes bit of evidence that they are better. All I have heard so far is the manufacturer's spin on why a hunter should pay the premium price.

I do have a 300 Remington Ultra Mag., and I have shot deer with the 165 grain Sierra Game King. I can assure you this bullet does not blow up on impact. And I can also assure you that the bullet will kill a deer.:D:D:D

To quote an old commercial "Where's the Beef", Tom.

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They are just making them more aerodynamic . I now of very few people that ever got the original X bullet to fly but that was 13 years ago or so when they were introduced.

No doubt it will kill a deer but you can honestly say it won't ' blow up on real close shots.

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Well Tom I look at it like this.... they aren't getting rid of F-18s in the Navy because they didn't work..... they just developed something that works better (the JSF). Granted that ain't a great comparison, because a bullet that kills a deer has done its job, whether it expanded to 1.5x's caliber and retained 90% of its weight or not. If you want an aircraft that will drop a bomb, you can get a hand grenade and a Cessna for a lot less money and bother than it takes to develop an F-22 and train a naval aviator. You'll have to refer to my bourbon analogy in my first post... I think it fits better here still...

The original X bullets that I used were out of my 30/30 Ackley. Now, those big old flat hollow bullets that you could practically sharpen a #2 pencil in... I can pretty much guarentee (though I only recovered a couple) that they all opened up.... heck it was like shooting a partition without the lead in the nose at a deer.

What I think ammunition companies are attempting to do by developing new "premium" complex bullets is eliminate variables that could lead to "bullet failure". They are trying to control the expansion more and more... trying to control the uncontrolable... a bone at just such an angle for example... a bonded bullet will eat right on through that bone, while a non-bonded bullet might start to break up... granted it will make it through the bone and turn it into schrapnel as it goes... both bullets will kill the deer, I'm not debating that at all. Will it kill it any better? Well... just how dead do you want it to be? Hunters look to eliminate variables, or potential issues before the hunt... premium bullets fill that niche for some folks... guys like you and I Tom... we handload and build up loads for our rifles so we can hit a Skoal can at 300 yards every time, and we enjoy doing it. It doesn't matter to me (or likely you either) if the bullet that will do just that is a 5 cents worth of lead tire metal bullet or a .75 TSX bullet. As long as it arrives on time right where it is supposed to, we'll find our deer dead enough for us.

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LOL You dont need to justify spending a fortune on a specialized bullet just to kill a deer with me.....hell its your money...:D I dont care what you use...


Telling me the x kills better than anything else is pure plain and simple horse****....dead is dead is dead...theres no varying shades of degrees of death. I just went down and opened the freezer and poked at a bag of tenderloin for 30 seconds and it didnt move...Id say thats dead...

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I'd say the biggest difference in premium ammo and the regular stuff is tolerances. It doesn't matter how good the bullet is if the loads are not consistant! I also think that some of the cheaper loads have come a long way in the last few years, quality-wise. But, all guns are different! Some guns prefer one brand over the others. My 7MM RM seems to like the plain old Core-Locts over the fancy high dollar stuff!
I do my job right, Betsy does hers! The deer couldn't tell the difference from being hit with lead or 24K gold!

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I agree with oldelkhunter.

Those old CoreLokts, Power Points, and Hi-Shoks always worked fine for me, but I don't shoot too many magnums, so that's about all that I can find available for my plain old calibers. None of that fancy stuff.

I reload, but don't use GameKings any longer on animals (though are great for target shooting) because they can't seem to hold onto their jacket. I've had absolutely no problem with Hornady Interlocks, though. The only "high-end" bullets I've used were Barnes and A-Square .375s, which performed exactly as I'd expect them to for the price I paid for them.

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CALIFORNIA andf the next great lead ban . There a dimes worth of poo for "premium" bullet.

I've never shot one ,never needed to . I like patch balls in my hawkens , cast 160s and 180s and 150 spbt hornady's in my 308 and 06' , 255-60 rnfp cast a little to soft in my 45 Colts , 158 swc pick a flavor for 38-357.
You'll be shocked to learn I pass shoot geese with a 2 3/4 12 ga too .

If you look at the board at heart we are all just die hard out doors junkies and a whole bunch of old schoolers trying to get and keep the youngin's in the field even if we might have to admit that under 125 yrds about any .22+center fire rifle (18"+bbl) will kill a deer and about any .35+ pistol will do the same under 50 yrds within reason .I can think of at least 5 or 6 exceptions that are legal for the above uses but are generally obscure and would baffle most wardens .

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No arguements that a standard cup and core works well on deer. However some like to use one load for deer, elk and moose so for this the premium might be worth the extra dimes. Having tried to find the right combination for a do all butam back to whereI started a deer load for deer(expansion)and a load for moose/elk (penetration).

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Tom,
I primarily use the Sierra Game King BT to reload my 7mm mag. I've used the Noslar and the Barnes but only when I can get them on sale. I see no need to pay 4 times the price for the Barnes (as compared to the Sierra) for dead is dead with good shot placement. I shoot a few hundred roundswith the 7 mm mag at the range through out the year soI feel very comfortable usingthe Sierrasin the field. I can see those that are only buying a box of factory ammo every year or two paying the price for premium ammo but not for some one whom shoots as much as I do. I have seen guys that use the .223 and 22-250 for deer (some very efficient and some not) so I guess it comes down to the preference and ability of the hunter. I personally would not use these cal. for deer but that once again thatis just personal preference. Then again many may say that using a 7 mm mag for deer is overkill. The size of deer a person is hunting is also a consideration whichI believe should beseen as a factor.I was watching a hunting show the other night and the hunter commented, "What a huge bodied deer, it must be at least 220lbs. on the hoof.". Up north that body size deer would be seen as less than average. It is not uncommon, where I am hunting in Canada to have deer 250lbs. dressed so for me the 7 mm mag is not over kill.

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Dumper....

Would figure you from WV anyway, had you not listed your AO...simply by your ability to tout your own stupidity.

Heard y'all walk in a circle, unavoidably, on flat ground..........

To help you with that word, click here: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=unavoidably

The 85g TSX, generically refered to me as an "X", is one of my favorites.

Sourced from Midway, as an example, runs a whopping 58 cents apiece.

Driven at 3000 fps MV it can be zero'd at 250 yards less any worry on hold over.

Drive turrets past 250 and dealing death is easy.........

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Your showing your own stupidity with your comments.

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HEAD0001,

You are spot on with your post. I handload Nosler Partitions in every fast shooting (7mm-s.t.w, 7mm-r.u.m., 300-win mag & 340-weatherby) hunting rifle I own.
I do this because I want the bullet to stay together at close range. I use hornady & sierra bullets in all of my other rifles.

I have seen aSierra game king bullet fragment on impact at close range. The deer still died, but the front should looked like it got hit with a hand gernade.

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Am surprised you left out the smileycons to REALLY drive home your point.......

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Have recovered more than few Partitions with only the base to show for the effort....

More often than not, they seperate.........

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Partitions usually lose their frontend if bone is encountered or really thick skin(which deer don't have)...obviously the shrapnel scatters and destroys more tissue in that respect they are the worst of bullets that stay together but theystill work. The OP is claiming that regular cup and core bullets are all you need. I think for regular cartridges they are fine but in Hypervelocity cartridges they are prone to blowup especially if they hit bone..they will kill but destroy a lot of meat in the process, whereas a controlled expansion bullet will hold together and not destroy as much meat. The kill might not be animmediate bang flop but the results will still be a dead animal. All I can say is after hammering deer with all types of Magnums using both types of bullets that I got pretty disgusted finding deer with huge unncessary holes blown in their sides when using Factory cup and core bullets. 7 Rem mag with corelockts 7 WSM with powerpoints 300 wsm with powerpoints or silvertips 270 WSM with silvertips 300 weatherby mag with 180 hornday powerpoints. I won't use these type cartridges anymore on deer unless there is a controlled expansion bullet coming out of the bore.

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But you got the point

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If you actually had one to make...............

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Let me clarify it for you.. Your a Bigot:D:D:D

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Nah OEH... Miserable people are really persistent about trying to spread their mood. Perhaps if they can actually pass some of their misery and low self esteem by attempting to put others down it makes them feel just a little bit better about their own pathetic existence unless the other people just ignore them and see them for what they are. Wilds I feel sorry for you pal...maybe your life will improve sometime soon.

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Typical armchair internet banter from those who've not been there muchnor done that, much.....kudos on preserving the stereotype.

Not seeing the obvious with eyes wide shutis your short coming, not mine.....tho' it bodessmack in your face.

Nothing miserable at all about knowing the difference...............................

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My antagonism (spelled correctly BTW)was directed towards the Dude who claimed he loaded partitions in hi velocity rounds because they would stay together.....

'Tis common knowledge that Partitions don't stay together.....'specially in Hi-Vel rounds.

We'd be on the same page, I'd figure............

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Well, HEAD, I would not argue with you as you seem to have a solid basis in experience from which to speak! All I would say is that one should try to use properly constructed bullets for the task at hand-Soft, frangible, "varmint" bullets for small,lightly constructed targets like crows and groundhogs, etc., and tougher ones for the bigger game so penetration is adequate.

I think we can agree that the biggest, fastest, toughest bullet in the world is no good if it misses the target. Despite ol' Roy's claims to the contrary, even a Weatherby Magnum will not kill just from the effects of the wind from the bullet.

Nowadays, I load Nosler Partitions in all my hunting rifle calibers, even though I realize they are NOT NEEDED for light game (deer, caribou, etc., up to400 pounds or so).

I load them because they actually perform as they were designed to do-(unlike some of their competitors!!),hang togetherat high impact velocities AFTER the frontsection expands or even explodes, (YES, it is SUPPOSED to do that!!), but the rear sectionremains intact and continues to penetrate; AND, after a Nosler Partition bullet slows down at extended ranges, it still expands due to its' "soft front end". From my viewpoint, the bullet which does this best is the best of both worlds. A hunter cannot ask for anything more!

Despite losing their front sections, the Partition retains enough weight and structural integrity to go on through every animal I ever shot with one diring the last 50 years, except for two, which I recovered inside game after an UNBELIEVABLY LONG wound channel!