US Military ditching the 9mm, back to the 45ACP!
12-08-2007, 05:22 PM
#1
Nontypical Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Coralville, IA. USA
Posts: 3,802
US Military ditching the 9mm, back to the 45ACP!
Just found this article linked from ammoguide.com:
http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htweap/articles/20060127.aspx
The article was January 2006, and I haven't heard about it, but I wonder is progress has been made toward bidding and evaluating a new service pistol. Doesn't look like they are going back to the 1911 because of it's relative complexity. Maybe the H&K USP 45. The Springfield XD 45 would also be a good choice. I just hope the DoD doesn't make the same mistake it did with the M9, by forcing it to be built in the US in a brand new factory Beretta had to build just for that purpose, only to have the government refuse to pay the extra cost of U.S. labor. This forced Beretta to take some major cost cutting measures that made the M9 a far inferior cousin to the 92F namesake.
Anybody else heard about this move and when it's likely that our guys will have .45's in their holsters again?
Mike
U.S. Brings Back the .45 January 27, 2006: After two decades of use, the U.S. Department of Defense is getting rid of its Beretta M9 9mm pistol, and going back to the 11.4mm (.45 caliber) weapon. There have been constant complaints about the lesser (compared to the .45) hitting power of the 9mm. And in the last few years, SOCOM (Special Operations Command) and the marines have officially adopted .45 caliber pistols as "official alternatives" to the M9 Beretta. But now SOCOM has been given the task of finding a design that will be suitable as the JCP (Joint Combat Pistol). Various designs are being evaluated, but all must be .45 caliber and have a eight round magazine (at least), and high capacity mags holding up to 15. The new .45 will also have a rail for attachments, and be able to take a silencer. Length must be no more than 9.65 inches, and width no more than 1.53 inches.
The M1911 .45 caliber pistol that the 9mm Beretta replaced in 1985, was, as its nomenclature implied, an old design. There are several modern designs out there for .45 caliber pistols that are lighter, carry more ammo and are easier to maintain than the pre-World War I M1911 (which is actually about a century old, as a design). The Department of Defense plans to buy 645,000 JCPs. The competition could get intense with an order this size, and there are already some good .45 caliber designs out there, including a SOCOM version of the Heckler and Koch USP. The U.S. Marine Corps uses an upgraded version of the M1911, and were also looking at new .45 caliber designs.
SOCOM will, with input from other branches, handle the evaluation and final selection. This will take place this year, and if the military moves with unaccustomed alacrity, troops could start getting their JCPs next year. But don't hold your breath.
The M1911 .45 caliber pistol that the 9mm Beretta replaced in 1985, was, as its nomenclature implied, an old design. There are several modern designs out there for .45 caliber pistols that are lighter, carry more ammo and are easier to maintain than the pre-World War I M1911 (which is actually about a century old, as a design). The Department of Defense plans to buy 645,000 JCPs. The competition could get intense with an order this size, and there are already some good .45 caliber designs out there, including a SOCOM version of the Heckler and Koch USP. The U.S. Marine Corps uses an upgraded version of the M1911, and were also looking at new .45 caliber designs.
SOCOM will, with input from other branches, handle the evaluation and final selection. This will take place this year, and if the military moves with unaccustomed alacrity, troops could start getting their JCPs next year. But don't hold your breath.
The article was January 2006, and I haven't heard about it, but I wonder is progress has been made toward bidding and evaluating a new service pistol. Doesn't look like they are going back to the 1911 because of it's relative complexity. Maybe the H&K USP 45. The Springfield XD 45 would also be a good choice. I just hope the DoD doesn't make the same mistake it did with the M9, by forcing it to be built in the US in a brand new factory Beretta had to build just for that purpose, only to have the government refuse to pay the extra cost of U.S. labor. This forced Beretta to take some major cost cutting measures that made the M9 a far inferior cousin to the 92F namesake.
Anybody else heard about this move and when it's likely that our guys will have .45's in their holsters again?
Mike
12-08-2007, 05:51 PM
#2
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 6,867
RE: US Military ditching the 9mm, back to the 45ACP!
they usually do not talk much about there weapons of choice i am surprised they even said they would switch
to me the 9mm is better for penetrationwhich i would think is a big thing for them
to me the 9mm is better for penetrationwhich i would think is a big thing for them
12-08-2007, 09:18 PM
#4
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: PA
Posts: 2,313
RE: US Military ditching the 9mm, back to the 45ACP!
TheMarine Corpshas a 1911 style pistolCalles the MEU(SUC) Pistolin .45 ACP. The problem they are having with the 9mm is the bullet is going so fast in close quarters combat situations that it is going right through the enemy and not doing enough damage to slow the enemy down.
12-09-2007, 09:02 AM
#5
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Texas - BUT NOW in Madison County, NY
Posts: 6,270
RE: US Military ditching the 9mm, back to the 45ACP!
ORIGINAL: driftrider
Just found this article linked from ammoguide.com:
http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htweap/articles/20060127.aspx
The article was January 2006, and I haven't heard about it, but I wonder is progress has been made toward bidding and evaluating a new service pistol. Doesn't look like they are going back to the 1911 because of it's relative complexity. Maybe the H&K USP 45. The Springfield XD 45 would also be a good choice. I just hope the DoD doesn't make the same mistake it did with the M9, by forcing it to be built in the US in a brand new factory Beretta had to build just for that purpose, only to have the government refuse to pay the extra cost of U.S. labor. This forced Beretta to take some major cost cutting measures that made the M9 a far inferior cousin to the 92F namesake.
Anybody else heard about this move and when it's likely that our guys will have .45's in their holsters again?
Mike
Just found this article linked from ammoguide.com:
U.S. Brings Back the .45 January 27, 2006: After two decades of use, the U.S. Department of Defense is getting rid of its Beretta M9 9mm pistol, and going back to the 11.4mm (.45 caliber) weapon. There have been constant complaints about the lesser (compared to the .45) hitting power of the 9mm. And in the last few years, SOCOM (Special Operations Command) and the marines have officially adopted .45 caliber pistols as "official alternatives" to the M9 Beretta. But now SOCOM has been given the task of finding a design that will be suitable as the JCP (Joint Combat Pistol). Various designs are being evaluated, but all must be .45 caliber and have a eight round magazine (at least), and high capacity mags holding up to 15. The new .45 will also have a rail for attachments, and be able to take a silencer. Length must be no more than 9.65 inches, and width no more than 1.53 inches.
The M1911 .45 caliber pistol that the 9mm Beretta replaced in 1985, was, as its nomenclature implied, an old design. There are several modern designs out there for .45 caliber pistols that are lighter, carry more ammo and are easier to maintain than the pre-World War I M1911 (which is actually about a century old, as a design). The Department of Defense plans to buy 645,000 JCPs. The competition could get intense with an order this size, and there are already some good .45 caliber designs out there, including a SOCOM version of the Heckler and Koch USP. The U.S. Marine Corps uses an upgraded version of the M1911, and were also looking at new .45 caliber designs.
SOCOM will, with input from other branches, handle the evaluation and final selection. This will take place this year, and if the military moves with unaccustomed alacrity, troops could start getting their JCPs next year. But don't hold your breath.
The M1911 .45 caliber pistol that the 9mm Beretta replaced in 1985, was, as its nomenclature implied, an old design. There are several modern designs out there for .45 caliber pistols that are lighter, carry more ammo and are easier to maintain than the pre-World War I M1911 (which is actually about a century old, as a design). The Department of Defense plans to buy 645,000 JCPs. The competition could get intense with an order this size, and there are already some good .45 caliber designs out there, including a SOCOM version of the Heckler and Koch USP. The U.S. Marine Corps uses an upgraded version of the M1911, and were also looking at new .45 caliber designs.
SOCOM will, with input from other branches, handle the evaluation and final selection. This will take place this year, and if the military moves with unaccustomed alacrity, troops could start getting their JCPs next year. But don't hold your breath.
The article was January 2006, and I haven't heard about it, but I wonder is progress has been made toward bidding and evaluating a new service pistol. Doesn't look like they are going back to the 1911 because of it's relative complexity. Maybe the H&K USP 45. The Springfield XD 45 would also be a good choice. I just hope the DoD doesn't make the same mistake it did with the M9, by forcing it to be built in the US in a brand new factory Beretta had to build just for that purpose, only to have the government refuse to pay the extra cost of U.S. labor. This forced Beretta to take some major cost cutting measures that made the M9 a far inferior cousin to the 92F namesake.
Anybody else heard about this move and when it's likely that our guys will have .45's in their holsters again?
Mike
If indeed the DOD does replace 9mm pistols with one firing the .45 ACP, it will bethe second time in 100 years that this change to a larger bore handgun has happened. The first instance wasduring the Philippine Insurrection when the Colt Single Action Army .45 Colts were re-issued to replace the sorry .38 Long Colt revolvers that wouldn't stop the Moro Juramentados. Then later Browning developedthe .45 ACP to go along with his handgun designs. IMO, the 9mm is another sorry round in the same class as the .38 Long Colt, and it should never have been adopted either. It was donejust to keep the NATO countries happy. How many Americans have been killed because of THIS POLITICAL decision who would still be alive if they'd had a Model 1911A1 instead of that Beretta?? Adoption of the 9mm to replace the .45 ACP is just another example of the triumph of politics over practicality.
Yes, there are other, newer handgun designs that use the .45 ACP. Some do hold more rounds. But many experts still consider the M 1911A! to be basically the finest combat handgunever designed. In addition, more different M1911's are being made by various & sundry manufacturers today than any other combat handgun design. If one wants a large-capacity magazine, there's always the Para-Ordnance versions available.
12-09-2007, 10:59 AM
#6
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 6,867
RE: US Military ditching the 9mm, back to the 45ACP!
it is hard for me to understand how people think a guy can take a shot or two to the chest and keep working his gun or moving if you get hit in the lung your down might not be dead but i would not think you would be running around
also to me having 15 rounds in a stock size mag like the ruger p89 is alot better then having 7 in a stock size mag
also to me having 15 rounds in a stock size mag like the ruger p89 is alot better then having 7 in a stock size mag
12-09-2007, 03:20 PM
#7
Typical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location:
Posts: 692
RE: US Military ditching the 9mm, back to the 45ACP!
Shooting someone dead once with a.45 is preferable to stitching him with 1/2 a clip of 9mm and having him still pull the pin on a grenade!I had a neighbour who has 13 9mm slugs on his mantle removed from his lower torso + legs thanks to a Nazi with a Schmiezer SMG and he survived the encounter.The Brits dumped the 38SW and went back to the .455 Webley's for the same reason..........Harold
12-09-2007, 06:20 PM
#8
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 6,867
RE: US Military ditching the 9mm, back to the 45ACP!
ure from the lower torso but do you know anyone that has 13 9mm from the lungs. for knock down power the 45 will win over the 9mm everytime but what if you need to shot through a door or wall or a car door
.
.
ORIGINAL: Pioneer2
Shooting someone dead once with a.45 is preferable to stitching him with 1/2 a clip of 9mm and having him still pull the pin on a grenade!I had a neighbour who has 13 9mm slugs on his mantle removed from his lower torso + legs thanks to a Nazi with a Schmiezer SMG and he survived the encounter.The Brits dumped the 38SW and went back to the .455 Webley's for the same reason..........Harold
Shooting someone dead once with a.45 is preferable to stitching him with 1/2 a clip of 9mm and having him still pull the pin on a grenade!I had a neighbour who has 13 9mm slugs on his mantle removed from his lower torso + legs thanks to a Nazi with a Schmiezer SMG and he survived the encounter.The Brits dumped the 38SW and went back to the .455 Webley's for the same reason..........Harold
12-09-2007, 06:55 PM
#9
Super Moderator
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Northern California
Posts: 18,382
RE: US Military ditching the 9mm, back to the 45ACP!
ORIGINAL: bigtim6656
ure from the lower torso but do you know anyone that has 13 9mm from the lungs. for knock down power the 45 will win over the 9mm everytime but what if you need to shot through a door or wall or a car door
.
ure from the lower torso but do you know anyone that has 13 9mm from the lungs. for knock down power the 45 will win over the 9mm everytime but what if you need to shot through a door or wall or a car door
.
ORIGINAL: Pioneer2
Shooting someone dead once with a.45 is preferable to stitching him with 1/2 a clip of 9mm and having him still pull the pin on a grenade!I had a neighbour who has 13 9mm slugs on his mantle removed from his lower torso + legs thanks to a Nazi with a Schmiezer SMG and he survived the encounter.The Brits dumped the 38SW and went back to the .455 Webley's for the same reason..........Harold
Shooting someone dead once with a.45 is preferable to stitching him with 1/2 a clip of 9mm and having him still pull the pin on a grenade!I had a neighbour who has 13 9mm slugs on his mantle removed from his lower torso + legs thanks to a Nazi with a Schmiezer SMG and he survived the encounter.The Brits dumped the 38SW and went back to the .455 Webley's for the same reason..........Harold
On a serious note, I've always wondered why the military has stayed with the 9mm for so long. Most LE agencies have switched to a .40 with very good results and a significant improvement over the 9mm. A .40 gives you most of the terminal performance of a .45 with less recoil and muzzle climb.
12-09-2007, 07:32 PM
#10
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Body in SE WI, mind in U.P.
Posts: 4,781
RE: US Military ditching the 9mm, back to the 45ACP!
I just hope the DoD doesn't make the same mistake it did with the M9, by forcing it to be built in the US in a brand new factory Beretta had to build just for that purpose, only to have the government refuse to pay the extra cost of U.S. labor. This forced Beretta to take some major cost cutting measures that made the M9 a far inferior cousin to the 92F namesake.
The first instance wasduring the Philippine Insurrection when the Colt Single Action Army .45 Colts were re-issued to replace the sorry .38 Long Colt revolvers that wouldn't stop the Moro Juramentados. Then later Browning developedthe .45 ACP to go along with his handgun designs. IMO, the 9mm is another sorry round in the same class as the .38 Long Colt, and it should never have been adopted either. It was donejust to keep the NATO countries happy. How many Americans have been killed because of THIS POLITICAL decision who would still be alive if they'd had a Model 1911A1 instead of that Beretta??
How many Americans might have died if they were saddled with 50 year old worn out colts instead of a new reliable pistol?
Adoption of the 9mm to replace the .45 ACP is just another example of the triumph of politics over practicality.
On a serious note, I've always wondered why the military has stayed with the 9mm for so long. Most LE agencies have switched to a .40 with very good results and a significant improvement over the 9mm. A .40 gives you most of the terminal performance of a .45 with less recoil and muzzle climb.