RR-guys like you are providing a service to us and indeed are some of the cutting edge of load/rifle development. It was guys like you that started the whole handloading/varmit/benchrest thing many years ago. Each hunter has the moral responsibility to decide their OWN effective range. In fact,I just got my reamers on my .375 ruger full length case necked down to .284.

RR,

Well, that was good for a chuckle after a long day at the office. I probably should have been clearer in my sarcastic remark about Wally World. I think you and I both know that the selection there isn't going to be up-to-par with the kind of equipment you're going to need to be a competent long-range shooter.

That aside, nothing you can buy will ever MAKE you a long-range shooter, and you described the discipline involved already. This is a credit card world. And I hope you'd agree that credit cards might buy all the stuff you need EXCEPT for the skill and experience. Considering what you've posted already, I wouldn't consider you an "average shot". I'm an average shot with average equipment. I can do better with custom equipment, I just can't afford to do anything but borrow it from friends.But, I'm quite familiar with long-range ballistics, even to the point of compensating for meteorologic data and rotation of theEarth (granted, we're talking ranges well beyond 10,000m now).

Actually, what has me worked up the most is the "flippancy" manyposters have today with long-range shooting. Some are full of crap. Some are extremely competent riflemen. But, who's to tell the difference (I mean, you ALMOST believed that I'd go to Wal Mart for a Horus Vision)? If I hadn't called you out, no one here would know anything about your evolution as a shooter, other than how irritated it makes you when someone says you shouldn't hunt at long range. So, in a sense, anyone who's reading this should now know that while long-range hunting is possible, one doesn't become proficient at it overnight, thanks alone to a particular rifle or scope. What I'd hate to see encouraged is someone to try this with their rack-grade model 700 and think they'll be as effective as you are. They'll simply be disappointed.

As far as "advantage" goes, I wish I had some photos of the country I hunt uploaded. Just too much timber, it's very rare you'll see across a canyon from one ridge to another without knocking down some trees first. You're just not going to see much farther than 300 yards. And if some guy with a Wal-Mart rifle and VX-1 does take a poke at something I'm stalking from 700 yards away, he probably isn't going to hit it in the first place. Not much of an advantage, eh? I just hope he doesn't hit ME.

With all due respect, I don't doubt at all your ability. If someone's truly interested in long-range shooting, I'd hope they'd tag up with someone like you and learn about it,as opposed to someone who's just full of testosterone and BS.

You are wasting your talent on hunting, you should be shooting in the National Matches or perhaps on the Palma team..

RR,

I think we're close to an agreement here. I have absolutely no issue with your post above. You nailed it. Thanks for your patience. If a person's willing to do exactlywhat you say, go for it. If not? Well, I hope you'll understand my frustration with them?

Of course that's from a solid rest. I have yardage markers and wnd flagsevery 50 yrds on my 800 yard range and my a-bolt in 7mm rum was handbuilt by me. Also,I regulary practice to that range.

To shoot or not to shoot? What a question about long range hunting. I see nothing wrong with long range hunting as long as you have the skills and the equipement. On occassion I will take a long shot. However, people are not born as marksman, they are trained and unfortunately trial and error comes into play alot of time. I started shooting as a kid and I was a terrible shot. I had a limited range of about 100 yards. I practiced and experimented with equipement and done quite a bit of research over the years on internal and external ballistics. I had increased my ability slowly over the years. I graduated from the US Army Scout Sniper Course with a lot of new found knowledge and I had perfected my craft. I was hooked just like a crack addict. There is something so special to those few who can connect on long shoots, that most people know nothing about. People who are just trying to BS someone on these forum's are pretty easy to spot for those that have the knowledge about long range shooting. It is also our duty to be ethical and bust their bubble. Being that I have said, I actually prefer hunting at very close range, not that I lack the skills or ability. I have just became addicted to the adrenalin rush that I get from being in close quarters with my intended target. Then again its a personal issue and opinion. Happy hunting and good shooting. I think I just realized the real debate here though; I believe that the sport of hunting has become to commercialized. It is a shame because as hunters we have let big bussiness get there fingers and greedy fingers into our pockets. There is nothing wrong with making a profit within the sport of hunting, but what is really happening is that is becoming a rich man's sport. There are alot of subsistant hunters out there in our great nation. Its a shame that we have to have the best scent free clothing and boots let alone the top of the line gun that just came along. How far as sportsman are we willing to go? Will our grandchildren be able to hunt? I think the real debate is not about long range hunting, but the fact that we are slowly but surely loosing ground to hunt. When a person has to apply for the right to buy a firearm and spend what little money they have worked so hard to earn and then be suckered into spending every dime to keep up with the likes of Bill Jordan and team realtree. I am in no way slamming Bill Jordan or team realtree. I remember as a kid hunting and I didn't have all the fancy hunting clothes and weapons that I have now. Yes, I have worked and bought what I wanted only after supporting my family. The real question is more about Big bussiness witha death grip on the hunting sport. Gee, do you realize that hunting is a industry now? So, where does questions and answers lye? In the sportsman and how deep we are willing to go into our pockets. I didn't mean to get on a rant but I think we should look at some of these issue's. Do you all realize that ammunition has more than doubled in the past 10-15 years? What about the average hard working people that like to hunt but can't afford to buy a decent rifle or hunting clothes.

Ya'll have a good debate and thanks for tolerating my opion even if you don't agree. Its your right, that I fight for every day.

OK RR I have been around a average hunters, I like to call the typical 30-06 crowd those who think the old '06 is "the gun" no disrespect, but if these guys knew that much about ballistics they would see its not all that . My dad who is responsible for my love of hunting and shooting has always stressed bullet placement, being able to know what your bullet is doing at range is a huge asset to getting the job done at distance. As for my dads gun for years he shot a .243 win ( a weatherby) and I saw and helped drag alot of deer at 375- 501yds deer he shot with an 87gr bullet , not to many '06 guys would even take that shot, and ask the average hunter what his bullet is doing at 300yrds and he doesnt know . My dad now has addopted one of my rifles a 6.5-06 a sweeet shooter and where he hunts he has the oppertunity to shoot out to 600yrds usually sees deer a lot closer. Now my fav hunting rig is my ruger 25-06 with a 100gr nosler Ballistic tip at about 3500fps at the muzzle. A pretty flat shooter , now just because I saw a guy on the internet kill a critter at 781 yrds or I saw my dad do deer at 500 yrds I myself even though I have the equipment to get the job done and have shot papaper at 300 yrds, and I know what my bullet is doing at that distance I dont feel I am 100% confident in my ability to make a clean kill.So kudos to you ,my hats off to you . Now if I had a spot where I could practice those looong shots I would love to build that confidence .

Greta post.

Despite what the hour long hunting commercials (available on DVD) that paint an unrealistic view of reality (unless everyone's reality was shooting trophy animals on canned hunts day in and day out), most of the crap shilled is not needed for hunting. Carbon suits, scent killers, etc are to hunting what most bass fishing gear is to fishing- if you buy it, it has already served its purpose.

Same thing with long range shooting. It seems to have become more and more of hte rage in the last few years. There isn't a day that goes by that I don't see a post on a forum somewhere where a person is looking for advice on buying their first rifle and usually asks how good the rifle will be at 500 or 1000 yards for hunting. Once again, somewhere somehow, people are being fed distorted versions of reality. Out of the last 5 deer I've taken with a rifle, ony one of them was beyond archery range, and even then, not by much.

That's pretty much the same bottom line that I had when we all went round and round on this subject a while back. If you are taking shots from 700 yards because you can't get any closer then you suck as a hunter. If you are hanging back at these distances on purpose just to see if you can still hit something then you are just playing Rambo Sniper and not actually even trying to hunt the animal.

Is a 750 yard shot an impressive feat of marksmanship? Yep, but I'd be just as impressed to see you hit a gong or a milk jug at that distance. Making your "target" a live deer at that distance adds absolutely no extra element of impressiveness. And so far as I know, no one has ever wounded and lost a gong or a milk jug.

I know. Ain't the internet grand. People can do dang near anything. On the internet that is.

Like someone mentioned before, you just have to figure out what game your gonna be shooting..
Personally I don't consider 400-500yrds "longrange shooting"
Most standard cals are capable of hitting targets at that distance time and time again have more than enough energy to dump deer size game out to 500yrds..
Moose aren't that hard to bring down with a 30-06 at that range either...
However things change when your shooting Elk...
If ya want a 500ryrd gun capable of shooting deer moose elk sheep goat
Personally I find the 30cals group better at longer distances, but heres some that could work for ya.
270WSM any of the 7mmmags and 300mags 325wsm and .338win mag...
If ya can handle the recoil of anything bigger than the .338 give em a whirl...