5.56/223 for elk/moose(don't flame me yet!)
 

ok, first off let me say i WILL NOT DO THIS SO DON'T SET FIRE TO MY HOUSE.. here's the question.. sort of.. a .223/5.56 FMJ will go straight through an entire car(did it at the police academy, do not argue w/ me on this).. so if it'll go through a car, it will undoubtedly go through both shoulders of an elk/moose.. if it will go through both shoulders, wouldn't it break both shoulders rendering the animal w/ 2 broken shoulders and unable to run?? not that i'd do it, but it's just a question... it's probably not even legal.. would it work for deer too?? i'm just saying IF YOU HIT THE ANIMAL PERFECT, we're not arguing if it's right, wrong, or what if i miss.. just want some clearification...

RE: 5.56/223 for elk/moose(don't flame me yet!)
 

Shoulder bone will stop it or at the very least keep it from penetrating very far. Behind the shoulder it would penetrate farther, doubt it would go through a moose though, maybe, maybe not.
I would shoot him in the head with that small a caliber, that would do it everytime.

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RE: 5.56/223 for elk/moose(don't flame me yet!)
 

hmm.. engine block didn't stop the fmj 5.56 round.. what mkes you think the bone will?

RE: 5.56/223 for elk/moose(don't flame me yet!)
 

but what i'm asking is, will it break the shoulders and make the animal drop.. no, it will not be DEAD by any means nor is it a humane way to kill a game animal.. i just wondered if it went through both shoulders would it take them down

RE: 5.56/223 for elk/moose(don't flame me yet!)
 

Last I heard FMJ wasn't legal on big game , It might work but what is the point .

RE: 5.56/223 for elk/moose(don't flame me yet!)
 

how far away was this engine block?

that is a little hard to believe, but ill take your word for it. What part of the engine block did it go through??

RE: 5.56/223 for elk/moose(don't flame me yet!)
 

Pretty sure you are the first guy I have ever heard claim that a 5.56 penetrated clear thru an engine block, and then the rest of the car.

Sure it wasn't a 50BMG?

RE: 5.56/223 for elk/moose(don't flame me yet!)
 

He said don't argue with him one this one. goosh.

RE: 5.56/223 for elk/moose(don't flame me yet!)
 

first of all, i think if we can't argue with you about this, and it indeed went straight through the entire engine blocks, hitting all of the thick metal and just going right through, then it would probably be 100% that it could easily go through 2 thick bones.

but then again, remember you are using a full metal jacket which nobody uses to hunt. and such a tiny hole left by a .243 full metall jacket will be very inneficient at killing a moose even if it did.

So , with a hunting round that is made for expansion, no way would it penetrate through 2 shoulder blades. that would be tough to do even with a 300 mag.

but if you say the fmj went through an engine block, then the fmjs could easily do it.

but note, going straight through an engine block and exiting on the other side would be going through a few inches of aluminum/metal. Which is why it is incredibly hard to believe.

RE: 5.56/223 for elk/moose(don't flame me yet!)
 

Was it a matchbox car?[8D]

RE: 5.56/223 for elk/moose(don't flame me yet!)
 

The .223 was developed to be an anti-tank round, don't argue with me about this. An elk or a Moose wouldn't be a good test for the .223's ability, I suggest a Cape Buffalo or Hippo.:D

RE: 5.56/223 for elk/moose(don't flame me yet!)
 

No doubt a full metal jacket in any round will out penetrate anything outthere. But it's not designed for tissue damage. It would be like telling a archery hunter to use a field tip to harvest big game. Animals survive bullet and arrow wounds. They will definetly survive the full metal jacket if it's not a vital hit. If I were ever crazy enough to use a full metal jacket on big game the shoulder would be the last place I'd shoot for. I'd go straight for the heart or head no other shot would be conceivable. Even a lung shot may end up with hours of tracking. Especially a tiny .223 bullet. Don't get me wrong hundreds of elk fall to these little varmit guns everyyear, but we call these guys poachers and they don't care if the animal runs off wounded. If people think a 270win is too small for elk who would even consider a .223. There's a reason that most elk states have the 6mm or larger rule. I don't think I need to explain that one.

RE: 5.56/223 for elk/moose(don't flame me yet!)
 

Through an engine block? A .223? I'm not calling you a liar, but that's one of those things I'd have to see for myself. I was in the Marines for many years and the M16 was the main service rifle. That's a little bullet .
Just trying to figure it out.

RE: 5.56/223 for elk/moose(don't flame me yet!)
 

He's right guys. Our Sheriff's Dept. did the same tests here with the same results. Even the 9mm blew right thru the car, not engine but thru the car. They did the test to see if a car is a good thing to hide behind during a shoot out, lets just say, I would find something else to hide behind.

RE: 5.56/223 for elk/moose(don't flame me yet!)
 

Kids, don't try this at home:D:D:D

RE: 5.56/223 for elk/moose(don't flame me yet!)
 

I learned, when stationed in Saudi Arabia of all places, that M16's were being used to poach elephants. Thus, I am quite confident that elk would ultimately succumb as well. Maybe after running a county or 2 away, short of a good CNS shot. At the same time, critters have a high density of water in them, and water slows down all bullets real fast. It is a different medium. Historically, some M16 bullets break around the cannelure and cause a larger wound channel with interior spalling from the fragments. That can add to the damage. I am personally biased against the 223 against 100 pound or bigger targets, but it is a rip snortin' pest cartrige.

RE: 5.56/223 for elk/moose(don't flame me yet!)
 

I am sure it could go through two doors or the rear fenders through the trunk, but through both front fenders, the inner firewalls and through an engine ? I doubt it. A bare engine block sitting on the ground ? probably, but it would have to be bare, because if it hit any internal engine parts I.E. rods, crank, camshaft etc. It would stop it. The engine block itself is cast ,it is pretty brittle, you can break an engine block with a hammer. The internals are much much stronger.

RE: 5.56/223 for elk/moose(don't flame me yet!)
 

A car might have 1/16" of steel and another 1/2" of plastic and insulation to go through, I'd be suprised if a .223 or 9mm didn't go all the way through- it would be like shooting at a long row of beer cans. An engine block is a completely differetn story. As far as using a car for cover, I'd feel relatively safe with an engine block between me and a shooter, and almost as safe behind a wheel where you have a few inches of steel/aluminum from the brake drums/rotors + wheels.

RE: 5.56/223 for elk/moose(don't flame me yet!)
 

*stopped reading posts about halfway down*

i don't think he ever claimed it went through the engine block...i was imagining doors when i read it.

moving on...

RE: 5.56/223 for elk/moose(don't flame me yet!)
 

I dont doubt a FMJ 223 round would go through both lungs of a moose or elk but i dont know about the shoulders. I know that a 22-250 loaded with 70 grain barnes bullets will almost penetrate a moose length-wise though.

RE: 5.56/223 for elk/moose(don't flame me yet!)
 

The problem with the FMJs is they have a tendency to tumble as soon as they hit something.

If it wasn't 20 some below right now I have an old Ford 360 engine sitting in the junk pile. I could go shoot it from whatever distance and give the results. Wouldn't have a grill, radiator, fenders, bumper, inner fenders, etc to slow it down.

RE: 5.56/223 for elk/moose(don't flame me yet!)
 

What brand was the engine block? Toyota, Dodge, ???????

RE: 5.56/223 for elk/moose(don't flame me yet!)
 

i believe it was a chev. cavalier.. but i'm not certain.. all i remember is they told us if we ever have to hide behind a car, hide behind the wheel AND the engine block.. thats why cops angle cars on traffic stops.. maybe it didn't go all the way through the block length wise, but i know it went through part of it.. we put real long metal rods through the car to show the path of the fmj bullet.. yeah, it's a small bullet with a helluva velocity.. i know it's not ethical and i wouldn't do it, just wondering if two .22 sized holes in the front two shoulders of an elk/moose would bring it down...

RE: 5.56/223 for elk/moose(don't flame me yet!)
 

.223 Remington will not drop an elk or moose with a shoulder shot, end of discussion.

RE: 5.56/223 for elk/moose(don't flame me yet!)
 

your from matador, texas.. how many elk do you have down there??

RE: 5.56/223 for elk/moose(don't flame me yet!)
 

I may be from Matador,Texas, but I know what a bullet can and can't do to game, something you may want to experience some time.As for your personal attack, its uncalled for.

RE: 5.56/223 for elk/moose(don't flame me yet!)
 

The lack of knowledge you have in hunting, and balllistics, is laughable. Actually do some hunting, before you come and blow my horn.

RE: 5.56/223 for elk/moose(don't flame me yet!)
 

I'm sorry but I agree with pighunter I've seen the size of both moose and elk there is no way a .223 can drop one of eather with a shoulder shot it doesnt have the stopping power. looking at the characteristics of the round all it does is pierce through it doesnt dump enough energy to knock it down. that's plain and simple. you have to use at least a 7mm in order to drop eather of them. Personaly I would use a .50BMG on moose simply because of their tempers but I know that is over kill. I would honestly use my M1 Garand hunting both those animals.

RE: 5.56/223 for elk/moose(don't flame me yet!)
 

the 270 is a proven round to take Elk and Moose.
Now I want to go shoot my old Ford 302 block with my AR.(5.56)

RE: 5.56/223 for elk/moose(don't flame me yet!)
 

I would still want somethin with a little more ooomph behind it. just personal preference but no way would I go out with a .223

RE: 5.56/223 for elk/moose(don't flame me yet!)
 

:eek:

RE: 5.56/223 for elk/moose(don't flame me yet!)
 

To Everyone-- To answer ???'s about the engine block issue, I can say from personal experience that a 5.56 NATO FMJ round WILL go through a engine block, if it is lucky in its path. Pistons, cranks and cams either stop it cold or absorb enough energy to where it tumbles and stops(usually). I know it sounds insane, but I have seen it with my own eyes too many times.

To FBplaya-- I see no reason it would not go through both shoulders if it hit squarely. I cannot say as to weather or not it would break the shoulders, but I doubt it. However, IF it did break BOTH shoulders, then yes it obviousley could not run, though try as it may. IF you hit it just PERFECT, and the round did not fragment, nor ricochet and play pinball inside(which they love to do), and every conceivable thing was perfect, could it happen: it is definitly possible. I know that is not a yes or no answer, but with something like that there are just way too many variables to say definitly yes or definitly no.

Jerry

RE: 5.56/223 for elk/moose(don't flame me yet!)
 

I was in the 75th rangers for 5 years, I probably shot 100,000 5.56 nato fmj rounds. We shot them into and at many drone and incapacitated,vehicles as well as some live fire in service.I never saw or experinced any rounds that penetratedthe engine or other hardened steel of the vehicles. Yes they had no trouble stopping them cause of the shear mass of rounds in them (ie: oil pan, fuel tanks, drivers, ect) Now the M60 would do some major damage and it will break and penetrate the motor and tranmission. Agin there were shear masses shot into them from a full auto rifle/rifles. There is no magic to the 5.56 , it is not ment to be a armor piercing round.It was made to give the military a platformfor all person's to carry. I know in the army everyone had to shoot / guailify with the m16. That giveeven the supply clerks a weapon if needed to help defend there unit or them selves.In combat causing casualties (not necessarily to kill) is what it is about.I know when we wanted to stop a vehicle we used a .50bmg,then used the 5.56/7.62 to put the thing to rest.All rounds when striking an object in flite will tend to tumble, that is not only the 5.56.
So will it penetrate an elks shoulder --sure in the right situation, I think the overwelming majority will agree it is not the best round for the job nor should be recommended for it. I dont care what it will penetrate. There is more to ballistics then that. It is of my humble opinion that an animal does'nt know its going to die when shot (like a human does) so it requires you as a human to dispatch it as humanely as possible. They can run a long way in a short amount of time, more then most want to even walk. So do yourself a favor and the animal some due respect and use a round made for the job, if you dont have one, get one, if you cant buy it ,borrow it.

RE: 5.56/223 for elk/moose(don't flame me yet!)
 

DANTHEHUNTER,(Rangers lead the way. been there myself in '70).Like you say that round is not magic. But I believe any critter you hit in the "NOODLE" with a .223 will be down for the count.I have personally put Hornady 100 grain BTSP .243 caliber rounds all the way through an old pinto engine.When they come out of the other side it looks like the oil is trying to catch on fire.

RE: 5.56/223 for elk/moose(don't flame me yet!)
 

Ya I know they will go through them but if hitting any hardened steel it will take a armor piercing round. I shot my 45/70 through a motor block -that was interesting to see. And last but not least great to have a ranger vet on here with me !!!!!!!!!!!!!

RE: 5.56/223 for elk/moose(don't flame me yet!)
 

Pighunter, i hear your a troll.. i was tld to ask you when you moved from NW Arkansas to Matador Texas.. any explanations for this???

RE: 5.56/223 for elk/moose(don't flame me yet!)
 

Yeah, I moved last month:DI also hear that you are a complete moron who doesn't know squat about guns or ballistics;)I just wanna know, who let you in on the most obvious secret?

RE: 5.56/223 for elk/moose(don't flame me yet!)
 

I'm not a troll, I just state my opinion, and some people have a hard time dealing with it.

RE: 5.56/223 for elk/moose(don't flame me yet!)
 

The 223 has been used to poach Cape Buffalo and elephants so I quess an elk would not be a big deal. The FMJ will penetrate through about any animal. As already pointed out however, I don't think it would be legal anywhere for elk and moose.