RE: 5.56/223 for elk/moose(don't flame me yet!)
 

foot answer to your ?
itmay pass through with very little damage therefor not even slowing it down.

RE: 5.56/223 for elk/moose(don't flame me yet!)
 

The green tip 62 gr. SS 109 NATO rounds our troops currently are packing in the great sandbox have considerable penetration. Underneath the jacket is a hardened steel penetrator tip. I recently shot one through a fairly new railroad tie that had a piece of 3/8" mild steel bolted to the backside of it. The bulletpunched through this like an end mill. I don't think there is any animal in earth that couldn't be dropped with one of these rounds fired into theanimal's brain.

What I would expect to happen in the elk/moose scenario described in the original post is that the bullet would make a very small hole through the bones of the shoulder - not really shatter the bone structure, but leave a tiny hole that would not necessarily disable the animal.

RE: 5.56/223 for elk/moose(don't flame me yet!)
 

B-S! bigmatty a 70 gr speer will cleanly penetrate a whitetail sideways but that's about all, and the barns isn't that much better. A 223 aint gona penetrate an engine block unless it's a Briggs & Stratton !

RE: 5.56/223 for elk/moose(don't flame me yet!)
 

I once owned a 788 in .223 that I bought second hand from a guy ,who's wife purchased it from a slippery eel gun salesman as a moose rifle for her husband.I got the gun and a box [missing 3rds] of Rem 55gr FMJ.Now the story: not having much money and needing meat ,one round check the rifles zero,second round into a bull moose's hump @75yards and 3rd rnd into moose's forehead between the lookers.Gun for sale.Deer never require a second shot with a .222 or .223 with 55gr Hornady's and double lung hits.Usually a backwards cartwheel and slam the ground or the 25yard dash and a face plant into the dirt.If NATO thinks it's OK on 200lb humans why wouldn't it be on deer?Also know of 3 blackbears shot with my 55gr .222 loads no problem. Harold

RE: 5.56/223 for elk/moose(don't flame me yet!)
 

I'm certainly glade for post like these. I need a good laugh now and then ,but I had to go get my waders on cuase some of it was gtting a bit deep.
A 22lr with kill anything on the planet if one is capable or lucky enough but that doesn't make it a big game round and niether is a 223. Penetration through a car? What both windows or side to side with all the guts removed in the doors? Penetration? I think not. I know soliders that have been complaining about the new variants of the weapon since Somolia and one in "the great sanbox" that have great concern of how lack of penetraion puts them at a disadvantage going house to house.

RE: 5.56/223 for elk/moose(don't flame me yet!)
 

After seeing what the hip joint bone of a 120-pound deer will stop,I would not be willing to bet that the 5.56mm would penetrate as well as you think it would in a big animal like a moose or elk. Nor could you count on it to break either shoulder. It would be more likely to make a .224" hole in the bone, if that......

RE: 5.56/223 for elk/moose(don't flame me yet!)
 

As hunters we have an obligation to ensure we humanely and quickly harvest game animals. That anyone is taking this suggestion seriously is a black mark on us all.

Using poachers as an example of effectiveness is horrible. We are not poachers, we are hunters; our ends are different. The poacher wants to take an animal with minimal chance of being caught by authorities. Wounding an animal is not even a thought, as they do not have a legal or moral obligation to retrieve wounded game. Wasting an animal is of no concern to them. It should be a concern to you.

You WILL wound a game animal of this size with the .223. You will likely lose all the wounded game. You will be responsible.

Don't waste our resources and ruin our reputation. Pick the right tool for the job.

RE: 5.56/223 for elk/moose(don't flame me yet!)
 

That'swhat I thinkit would do too. I thinkit would put two very small holes in each shoulder. It would probably kill the moose but you would have one heck of a tracking job on your hands. Thisalso depends on what distance you shoot the moose at.

This of course this is ONLY with military 62gr(actually 61.5gr)SS109 projectile loaded M855ammo. This stuff is not just a FMJ bullet buthas a hardened steel core. Not quite like an actual a/p round but as close as you can get in such a small projectile. Remember hunting ammo is no way near as strong as this militaryammo and it's not designed as a multipurpose round like the GI stuff.

footballplaya, you are also correct in that it would not be legal to use this type ofround for hunting (at lease not in my state) so it's kind of a mute point, but I understand it's a hypothetical question.

As far as passing through a car.....I think it's possible but again it would have to be M855 ammo (M196 won't cut the mustard) andthe bullet would have to pretty muchmiss the engine to do so. Withallof the hardenedalloy componentsin the engine ie: heads, pistons, crank shaft, connecting rods,rod caps, crank caps, etc...there is no wayit wouldmake it through that stuff at all (even M855) and I cannot picture a path through an engine (lengthways) that doesn't have at least a fewof thosecomponents in theway.

RE: 5.56/223 for elk/moose(don't flame me yet!)
 

Yeah, after shooting the .223 and seeing what the fmj bullet does I would have to say that it would more than likely just make small holes in the animal.The.223 rounds just doesnt have enough weight behind it to be a reliably effective game round. Itis meant to wound people, not kill large game.

RE: 5.56/223 for elk/moose(don't flame me yet!)
 

I just have a hard time believing that a .223 FMJ could penetrate an engine block...a .50cal yes .223 nahhhhhh.

RE: 5.56/223 for elk/moose(don't flame me yet!)
 

Fornra i was referring to a 70 grain barnes loaded in a 22-250, and i know for a fact that this combination will completly penetrate a deer lengthwise and will stop 3/4 of the way through a moose lengthwise. A broadside shot it will always go through a deer, and unless it hits some ribs on entrace and exit it will go through a moose also. If you dont beleive me try it.

RE: 5.56/223 for elk/moose(don't flame me yet!)
 

Going through a couple layers of thin sheet metal and upholstery with FMJ doesn't mean it would go through heavy hide very heavy bone and certainly wouldn't do sufficient organ damage to bring such an animal down.
Why do you even suggest something hypothetically? Use the right tool to do the job right in the first place. Don't give the impressionable some crazy ideas to go out and try a foolish stunt and cripple a big game animal.
If you consider this even a little on the hot seat. Sorry man, you earned this one.

RE: 5.56/223 for elk/moose(don't flame me yet!)
 

we have cars from previous law suits all over our yard and weve shot the crap out of them with everything from 22's to 45-70. all will easily go through a car and whats remarkable is how the .22 will leave a dime size hole through both driver and passenger side doors if if shot within 25 yards from the side of the car. Engine blocks are another thing though. Most bullets around .270 or larger do some good damage to the side of the engine block but most of them do not go completelty throgh the engine until it has been literally shot to heck nultiple times. the metal on the doors is usually 3/32nds of an inch which isnt gonne stop anything bigger than a bb gun so dont let the thought of "the bullet went through a car" get over emphasized.A two inch thick shoulder bone has considerably more stopping power than the metalused to manufacture most fenders and firewalls on modern vehicles.

RE: 5.56/223 for elk/moose(don't flame me yet!)
 

He's just curious, you moron! He didn't earn anything from you! And I see no way someone would get encouraged to hunt moose with a .223 when they could have a 30-06!
I would get the '06for my sake, not the animal's, since bull moose could get angry and kill people. If someoneunderestimates a bull moose's killing potential when angered and decides to hunt them with something that will make them mad, I hope they hunt moose with a .223 and get killed!!!! They are theones who "earned it".

RE: 5.56/223 for elk/moose(don't flame me yet!)
 

I have used a normal .223 to hunt deer and have drop them dead in there tracks at 150 yards. It is all about the right shot place ment.

RE: 5.56/223 for elk/moose(don't flame me yet!)
 

I was respectful to the originator of this thread, more than it deserved. In contrast, your insult toward me was anything but.

It's a ridiculous statement to talk about "hypothetically" doing something to a living breathing animal that’s unethical. It doesn't make sense to me nor 98% of the people here I'd bet to talk about shooting big games with a varmint round. Theother 2% don't need to have someone giving them stupid ideas to “try”.

Then you turn around and contradict your own assertion that "nobody is going to do this".... with "if they do, I hope that get stomped by a moose."
So, pull that big tree trunk out of your own eye bud before you try to tell me about the splinter you think might be in mine!

By the way, you really are projecting your own personal shortcomings on someone else when you go calling them things like "moron", unless they've demonstrated time and again that to be the case. I don't think you'd call me that if you knew me or we were face to face. For people who know me over many decades know I don’t fit that category you tried to put me in in your 30 second rant. Hope you learn to better control yourself better as you grow older.

RE: 5.56/223 for elk/moose(don't flame me yet!)
 

shucks, this got outta control

RE: 5.56/223 for elk/moose(don't flame me yet!)
 

You end up flaming the originator of the thread when he explicitly said, that he wasn't going to and has no intention of hunting moose with a .223, and that he doesn't recommend that anyone do it, he just wants to know if a .223 can go through a moose's shoulder bone, since he heard it went through some certain car part. It's like asking, "Can a .22 lr kill a deer with a head shot? I'm just asking, I won't and have no intention of hunting deer with a .22."

You apparently, are the only one who hasn't gotten the message and the point of this thread, it's nothing like the ".243 on elk" thread that was on here several months ago, and it's plain and obvious, written in plain American English, that he isn't and never will, hunt or suggest someone hunt with a .223.

If you honestly think any person is going to go out and hunt moose with a .223 when here there are listed all the reasons not to, you've clearlyunderestimated the human instincts for self-preservation.

I have good reason to believe you didn't read his post, and if you don't like the responsible thread, which can actually educate people as to the power of firearms, then don't post crap here.

I don't know what kind of a case you have with saying that I "contradicted myself", where was that?

If people are stupid enough to hunt moose with a .223 after viewing this thread, which I believe they aren't, they do deserve to be stomped by a moose, since they mightdo many more dumb things.

RE: 5.56/223 for elk/moose(don't flame me yet!)
 

There is no chance in hell a 5.56 round penetrated an engine block . I make steel targets out of "cold rolled " . They struggle thru amild thickness of that . I'm guessing that you shot thru someone elses hole .

RE: 5.56/223 for elk/moose(don't flame me yet!)
 

i think a .223 could shhot threw an engine block. i'm not saying it will everytime, i'm saying depending on the angle and distace to the target...it is feasable. remember, engine blocks (unless aluminum) are cast iron, not "true" steel. cast iron is more brittle and acceptable to crackingwith extreme forces.

RE: 5.56/223 for elk/moose(don't flame me yet!)
 

I remember when we went to the shooting range once, and we had one of those cast iron "whirly birds" for pistol shooting, on of those that's too big for .22 lr. Well, we had the brilliant idea of shooting an SKS at it, and I tell you, you never seen a clean hole till you seen what that 7.62x39 cartridge did to that thing!:D

RE: 5.56/223 for elk/moose(don't flame me yet!)
 

That is what I have been saying. If it hits hardened steel,it is not going to make it. I have shot 1000's of them at different targets,As far the car/truck/jeep going through them. Just shoot a metal coffee can that is the skin of a car.Then hit the motor block,it will go into it cause it is cast.Then hit the crank shaft! thats the end of that bullet.

RE: 5.56/223 for elk/moose(don't flame me yet!)
 

but it is possible for the bullet to miss the crank shaft, pistons, etc. on occaission.

RE: 5.56/223 for elk/moose(don't flame me yet!)
 

I can tell you from personal expierence that a 5.56 will not go through and engine block. I know i have tried in combat. I will also tell you yes they will kill a moose. I have seen Caribou taken with a .223 and they were shot a few times in the lungs and they laid down after a bit and died. Moose can be killed with one as well. Moose tend to lay down soon after being hit so if you can shoot it a few times in teh lungs it will work. That being said there is now way in hell i would ever use on on even deer. The guys i saw do it were inuits and the ammo is cheap and plentiful and they are outstanding hunters. They would shoot the Moose and then stop for an hour or so and then go find the Moose. Never went to far but they were 50yrds away when shot and shot several times. you can kill a man with a bb gun but that does not mean it is an effective weapon

RE: 5.56/223 for elk/moose(don't flame me yet!)
 

at what angle did you shoot through a car?? if you shot from bumper to bumber either at the rear to the front or vice versa I will have to say you are full of it because a 5.56 even with a AP round wont pass through an engine block. now if you are talking in one side out the other like say you shot the passenger door and the bullet exited the driver door I will give ya that because it will... but a 45 acp pistol round will do that too, and you dont see anyone elk hunting with a 1911 do ya??

RE: 5.56/223 for elk/moose(don't flame me yet!)
 

BLAHAHAH!! good one my friend

RE: 5.56/223 for elk/moose(don't flame me yet!)
 

yep!! when you open a can of worms like that you gotta expect some mud flinging...let this be a lesson for future reference before you post a retarded thread like this one ask yourself the the question first and if you cant form any logical answer dont post the thread Capeesh!!

RE: 5.56/223 for elk/moose(don't flame me yet!)
 

Obviously, you didn't read the title of the thread.
"5.56/223 for elk/moose(don't flame me yet!) "
Sorry you didn't "get it".

RE: 5.56/223 for elk/moose(don't flame me yet!)
 

I've been doing alot of research on ar-15s and I wouldn't recommend a .223/5.56mm NATO for anything larger than varmints. It will kill deer sure, but consider this. During the Blackhawk Down incident in Somalia, our guys recounted many times they were shooting terrorists multiple times (3-5 times) and they would just get right up and keep shooting back.

THAT prompted a series of (in some cases still ongoing) trials to find a better bullet - something that would knock something down and keep it down. This prompted the development of both the 6.8mm SPC that the Special Forces have adopted and the 6.5mm Grendel, which, if I remember correctly is ballistically superior to a .308 from muzzle to about 400 yards.

http://www.demigod.org/~zak/firearms/6.8SPC/faq.php

http://www.alexanderarms.com/grendel.htm

RE: 5.56/223 for elk/moose(don't flame me yet!)
 

yea but you forgot to mention that those somalians were high as kites and stoned out of their minds from a drug known as 'Khat' which has similar effects comparable to methamphetamine.

RE: 5.56/223 for elk/moose(don't flame me yet!)
 

So.... an elk or moose that just got shot isn't going to pump enough adrenaline to get a little high too?

Its not just Somalia - these reports are coming in from Iraq and Afghanistan.

SOLDIER WEAPONS ASSESSMENT TEAM REPORT 6-03
OPERATION IRAQI FREEDOM
31 July 2003

http://www.bob-oracle.com/SWATreport.htm

"Some targets were reportedly hit in the chest numerous times, but required at least one shot to the head to defeat it."


Widespread requests for higher lethality are what is prompting this review. and the development (and adoption) of guns like the HK 417, and the SCAR (both 7.62 NATO based guns). Its not a flook and its not just junkies- its just too light a cartridge; especially in the M4 configuration - the bullet looses alot of performance when you take away the 20" barrel and strap on that 14.5". I think that's why alot of Marines still use the 20" config, but I've never had that conrfirmed.

My oppinion is, if you want to nail something in an AR-15 config, lay down the dough to get it chambered in 6.5 Grendel, .308 or .300 Remington SAUM. That would be the only ethical way I could see to deploy that platform in a big game scenario (and its an option I am currently considering myself).

RE: 5.56/223 for elk/moose(don't flame me yet!)
 

My next AR will be a DPMSchambered for .243 Win.

RE: 5.56/223 for elk/moose(don't flame me yet!)
 

Special Forces has adopted the SPC? When?

RE: 5.56/223 for elk/moose(don't flame me yet!)
 

Obviously, you didn't read the POST.WHich is MUCH more important.

"ok, first off let me say i WILL NOT DO THIS SO DON'T SET FIRE TO MY HOUSE.."

You really should've read the post, and not try to play the "holy hunter" and defeating the very purpose of participating in this thread.

So why don't you shut up, since you've got no business on this thread.

Sorry you didn't "get it"

RE: 5.56/223 for elk/moose(don't flame me yet!)
 

Superior how?
Velocity? Nope
KE? Nope
BC? Nope (loaded with lapua scenars and tested against 7.62NATO then the answer is yes). You can outdo milspec ammunition with a .243 if you load it up with expensive VLD bullets but I don't see the military spending 40-50 cents just for the bullet portion of a cartridge.

If I had to use an AR-15 (not AR-10) to hutn a Moose with, I'd get a .50 Beowolf upper.

RE: 5.56/223 for elk/moose(don't flame me yet!)
 

They actually make AR-15's in .50 Beowulf?

RE: 5.56/223 for elk/moose(don't flame me yet!)
 

the .50 beowolf was originally developed on and for the AR platform... :eek:

RE: 5.56/223 for elk/moose(don't flame me yet!)
 

I shoot this round a bunch and even hunt deer with it. I have never attempted a shoulder shot with it because I think it would penetrate the bone without shattering it at a 90 and at other angles I'm not sure. Striking the bone at another angle will probably affect your bullet trajectory as it passes thru the tissue of the animal(a bad thing). I use a rapidly expanding tactical 62 gr. bullet for hunting. A .223 will kill anything you can shoot thru both lungs.

RE: 5.56/223 for elk/moose(don't flame me yet!)
 

Various answers to questions - adopted?
Deployed in the field at this time - but its probably going to be rejected by DoD if it hasn't been already - its just not effective enough.
http://www.defensereview.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=600

Better how? "It has a flatter trajectory and retains greater terminal energy at extended ranges than either of these cartridges (223, 7.62due to its higher ballistic coefficient" Also sub-moa out to 600 yards has been reported. At half the recoil of a .308 ----http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6.5_Grendel

The other site that has info is here: http://www.alexanderarms.com/grendel.htm

It'll be interesting to see what they come up with - there are some other players out there that are trying to fit this need- exciting stuff.

and one more link that discusses the 6.5 Grendel vs the 308 : http://www.65grendel.com/forum/showthread.php?t=811&highlight=.308

RE: 5.56/223 for elk/moose(don't flame me yet!)
 

.223 will not blow through an engine block. Not even with a FMJ. Oil pan, maybe. We trained at a junkyard all the time and left us all pretty humbled. Found that 75% of the 9mm rounds wouldnt even penetrate a friggin windshield, it deflected because of the angle.

We tried the "engine block" test with .223 and .308- neither worked.

But, with that said, I personally know a rancher that killed (legally) 21 elk with a 22-250, one shot apiece. If you extensively injure an animals lungs, he will always die. Every time.

Just my .02