does the military need a new service rifle
#21
ORIGINAL: Red Lion
This is the wave of the future in the carbine varient.
This is the wave of the future in the carbine varient.
As for the .243 overheating barrels, I'm not sure that would happen. With the types of barrels out there now, it's not such an issue. Look at the new M60E4. It can fire 800 rounds straight without stopping and no overheating. Only the Navy is using the M60 now, but this type of new barrel is being looked at as being the standard for any new rifles developed.
#22
Typical Buck
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 501
Likes: 0
From: OKC Ok. USA
There is a need for the military to do something. The newer short barreled weapons takes a round that was just ok at best to the realm of being a poor performer.
I've talked to people who have the experience and since Somolia there has been grumbling of the newer rifles performance. IMHO the M-16 was and still is a far from a great combat weapon. The 6.5 swede or something in that vein would be the proper choice for a new round IMHO.
I've talked to people who have the experience and since Somolia there has been grumbling of the newer rifles performance. IMHO the M-16 was and still is a far from a great combat weapon. The 6.5 swede or something in that vein would be the proper choice for a new round IMHO.
#23
I doubt that the 5.56 M-16 will be going away anytime soon! As someone said, the idea in combat is to throw lots of lead, fast! I would think that in some specialized units, we will see new weapons, but again, in combat the M-16 and 5.56 works! If it ain't broke, don't fix it! Yes, heavier clibers do a better job killing, but with the risk of being un-PC, killing is not always the always best. Wounded soldiers require more man-power and resourses than dead folks do. You also don't need sniper accuracy in field combat, and you can probably carry 3 times the ammo for a 5.56 than you can for an '08 or an Aught-6.
Throughout history, the guys with the fastest weapons are ussually the winners.
Now, for handgun CQC they need to go back to more stopping power of the old .45 ACP.
Throughout history, the guys with the fastest weapons are ussually the winners.
Now, for handgun CQC they need to go back to more stopping power of the old .45 ACP.
#24
Nontypical Buck
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 3,171
Likes: 0
From: A flat lander lost in the mountains of Northern,AZ
ORIGINAL: JagMagMan
I doubt that the 5.56 M-16 will be going away anytime soon! As someone said, the idea in combat is to throw lots of lead, fast! I would think that in some specialized units, we will see new weapons, but again, in combat the M-16 and 5.56 works! If it ain't broke, don't fix it! Yes, heavier clibers do a better job killing, but with the risk of being un-PC, killing is not always the always best. Wounded soldiers require more man-power and resourses than dead folks do. You also don't need sniper accuracy in field combat, and you can probably carry 3 times the ammo for a 5.56 than you can for an '08 or an Aught-6.
Throughout history, the guys with the fastest weapons are ussually the winners.
Now, for handgun CQC they need to go back to more stopping power of the old .45 ACP.
I doubt that the 5.56 M-16 will be going away anytime soon! As someone said, the idea in combat is to throw lots of lead, fast! I would think that in some specialized units, we will see new weapons, but again, in combat the M-16 and 5.56 works! If it ain't broke, don't fix it! Yes, heavier clibers do a better job killing, but with the risk of being un-PC, killing is not always the always best. Wounded soldiers require more man-power and resourses than dead folks do. You also don't need sniper accuracy in field combat, and you can probably carry 3 times the ammo for a 5.56 than you can for an '08 or an Aught-6.
Throughout history, the guys with the fastest weapons are ussually the winners.
Now, for handgun CQC they need to go back to more stopping power of the old .45 ACP.
#25
Nontypical Buck
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,392
Likes: 0
From: MN USA
I think that the standard M-16 .223, which was designed for and introduced in the early 60's for widespread military use has outlived it's usefulness. It was from the start not a weapon that functioned well when it got dirty, cold or wet. They (Colt) made some minor modifications to try to correct some of these short comings.
When I used one in the Army in the early 70's I never was impressed with a weapon that you have to have a seating and separate cocking handle (in the back). It was a pretty accurate rifle for a peep sight though. It wasn't hard to consistently hit targets out to 300+ yards.
I think there are replacement auto/semi-auto weapons that are being developed similar to an Israeli rifle that moves the action back further into the stock, shorting the overall weapon, while retaining approx. the same length barrel.
This makes it easier to move and fire quickly. I can't say whether it's gas operated (less desirable) or inertia (like Benelli's) shotguns (more reliable). But I was impressed by the demonstration on "The Military Channel" in the last 6 months. I have no idea when such a weapon is scheduled to start replacing the M-16. I would imagine that it would be a phased replacement to get full use out of millions of existing M-16 and warehouses full of ammo. Unless the later is the same.
When I used one in the Army in the early 70's I never was impressed with a weapon that you have to have a seating and separate cocking handle (in the back). It was a pretty accurate rifle for a peep sight though. It wasn't hard to consistently hit targets out to 300+ yards.
I think there are replacement auto/semi-auto weapons that are being developed similar to an Israeli rifle that moves the action back further into the stock, shorting the overall weapon, while retaining approx. the same length barrel.
This makes it easier to move and fire quickly. I can't say whether it's gas operated (less desirable) or inertia (like Benelli's) shotguns (more reliable). But I was impressed by the demonstration on "The Military Channel" in the last 6 months. I have no idea when such a weapon is scheduled to start replacing the M-16. I would imagine that it would be a phased replacement to get full use out of millions of existing M-16 and warehouses full of ammo. Unless the later is the same.
#26
It seems to me that Chuck's article did indeedmake the case for his .243 choice in regards to external ballistics, (meaning how the thing flies between the muzzle and the point of impact), as well as retained energy downrange. More energy further out there is a good thing, and shooting flat, and being less affected by wind are also good. However...
I would like to see a similar comparison in the terminal ballistics (both the shock effect and permanentdamage it does when it strikes flesh)of the 5.56, .243, .308, 6.8, and a few others that have been suggested as possible replacements. The magic bullet wouldhaveto be accurate and effectiveat extended ranges from standard issue long barrelled rifles, while still being effective from short barrelled carbine length guns.
Amen. Iron sights belong on handguns and other PDW's.
No batteries, has fiber, tritium, and with the chevron reticule it can be plenty accurate withoutcumbersome magnification.
Definitely need a better sidearm cartridge than a 9mm, especially if we are to continue being restricted to ball ammo. When your bullet can't expand, it better be big to start with.
I would like to see a similar comparison in the terminal ballistics (both the shock effect and permanentdamage it does when it strikes flesh)of the 5.56, .243, .308, 6.8, and a few others that have been suggested as possible replacements. The magic bullet wouldhaveto be accurate and effectiveat extended ranges from standard issue long barrelled rifles, while still being effective from short barrelled carbine length guns.
I think money would be better spent buying ACOGs for every soldier
No batteries, has fiber, tritium, and with the chevron reticule it can be plenty accurate withoutcumbersome magnification.
Definitely need a better sidearm cartridge than a 9mm, especially if we are to continue being restricted to ball ammo. When your bullet can't expand, it better be big to start with.
#27
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,673
Likes: 0
From: NW Arkansas
ORIGINAL: Bulzeye
It seems to me that Chuck's article did indeedmake the case for his .243 choice in regards to external ballistics, (meaning how the thing flies between the muzzle and the point of impact), as well as retained energy downrange. More energy further out there is a good thing, and shooting flat, and being less affected by wind are also good. However...
I would like to see a similar comparison in the terminal ballistics (both the shock effect and permanentdamage it does when it strikes flesh)of the 5.56, .243, .308, 6.8, and a few others that have been suggested as possible replacements. The magic bullet wouldhaveto be accurate and effectiveat extended ranges from standard issue long barrelled rifles, while still being effective from short barrelled carbine length guns.
Amen. Iron sights belong on handguns and other PDW's.
No batteries, has fiber, tritium, and with the chevron reticule it can be plenty accurate withoutcumbersome magnification.
Definitely need a better sidearm cartridge than a 9mm, especially if we are to continue being restricted to ball ammo. When your bullet can't expand, it better be big to start with.
It seems to me that Chuck's article did indeedmake the case for his .243 choice in regards to external ballistics, (meaning how the thing flies between the muzzle and the point of impact), as well as retained energy downrange. More energy further out there is a good thing, and shooting flat, and being less affected by wind are also good. However...
I would like to see a similar comparison in the terminal ballistics (both the shock effect and permanentdamage it does when it strikes flesh)of the 5.56, .243, .308, 6.8, and a few others that have been suggested as possible replacements. The magic bullet wouldhaveto be accurate and effectiveat extended ranges from standard issue long barrelled rifles, while still being effective from short barrelled carbine length guns.
I think money would be better spent buying ACOGs for every soldier
No batteries, has fiber, tritium, and with the chevron reticule it can be plenty accurate withoutcumbersome magnification.
Definitely need a better sidearm cartridge than a 9mm, especially if we are to continue being restricted to ball ammo. When your bullet can't expand, it better be big to start with.
#28
Nontypical Buck
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 3,171
Likes: 0
From: A flat lander lost in the mountains of Northern,AZ
ORIGINAL: Chantecler111
I agree about the handgun issue,I think the military should go back to the ole' .45 ACP as the issue pistol.
ORIGINAL: Bulzeye
It seems to me that Chuck's article did indeedmake the case for his .243 choice in regards to external ballistics, (meaning how the thing flies between the muzzle and the point of impact), as well as retained energy downrange. More energy further out there is a good thing, and shooting flat, and being less affected by wind are also good. However...
I would like to see a similar comparison in the terminal ballistics (both the shock effect and permanentdamage it does when it strikes flesh)of the 5.56, .243, .308, 6.8, and a few others that have been suggested as possible replacements. The magic bullet wouldhaveto be accurate and effectiveat extended ranges from standard issue long barrelled rifles, while still being effective from short barrelled carbine length guns.
Amen. Iron sights belong on handguns and other PDW's.
No batteries, has fiber, tritium, and with the chevron reticule it can be plenty accurate withoutcumbersome magnification.
Definitely need a better sidearm cartridge than a 9mm, especially if we are to continue being restricted to ball ammo. When your bullet can't expand, it better be big to start with.
It seems to me that Chuck's article did indeedmake the case for his .243 choice in regards to external ballistics, (meaning how the thing flies between the muzzle and the point of impact), as well as retained energy downrange. More energy further out there is a good thing, and shooting flat, and being less affected by wind are also good. However...
I would like to see a similar comparison in the terminal ballistics (both the shock effect and permanentdamage it does when it strikes flesh)of the 5.56, .243, .308, 6.8, and a few others that have been suggested as possible replacements. The magic bullet wouldhaveto be accurate and effectiveat extended ranges from standard issue long barrelled rifles, while still being effective from short barrelled carbine length guns.
I think money would be better spent buying ACOGs for every soldier
No batteries, has fiber, tritium, and with the chevron reticule it can be plenty accurate withoutcumbersome magnification.
Definitely need a better sidearm cartridge than a 9mm, especially if we are to continue being restricted to ball ammo. When your bullet can't expand, it better be big to start with.
#29
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 4,553
Likes: 0
From:
ORIGINAL: HighDesertWolf
No not really..... .223 = 5.56mm a 243 = 6mm, you do the math... with fmj ammo the 243 isnt gonna leave any bigger of a hole then a 223. besides the 5.56mm is known to tumble upon impact with flesh and bone I believe with the higher velocity and heavier bullet of the 243 makes for a much more stable projectile and it would just pass through causing far less tissue damage then what the 5.56mm is known to do.
something else to consider is with a service rifle the idea is to keep the lead flying. a 243 would over heat a barrel way to fast in a fire fight causing severe damage to the weapons barrel. I guarentee our armed forces really dont want to have to change the barrels of there service weapons after every fire fight.
IMO there is really nothing wrong with the 5.56mm. instead of worrying about the caliber our military should worry more about the platform it is fired from.
ORIGINAL: Red Lion
When it comes to shooting humans it would be a big step up from the .223.
When it comes to shooting humans it would be a big step up from the .223.
something else to consider is with a service rifle the idea is to keep the lead flying. a 243 would over heat a barrel way to fast in a fire fight causing severe damage to the weapons barrel. I guarentee our armed forces really dont want to have to change the barrels of there service weapons after every fire fight.
IMO there is really nothing wrong with the 5.56mm. instead of worrying about the caliber our military should worry more about the platform it is fired from.
You will always need other tools in the tool box for certain MOS/jobs and situations, so other rifles would be appropriate for more specialized soldiers.


