Hunter4life81

Yeah well which one kills, Nrg Or Velocity?? or are they working together??

Soilarch

WOW...you just opened a big can of worms!!! They do work together. After all, velocity is part of the physics equation to get energy. There's two camps on this subject. Ones says that speed (with sufficient energy) kills the best. The other says that energy (with sufficient velocity) kills the best. See the problem here? THEY BOTH KILL!!!! Such arguements between the two camps are almost always ended "better" or "best"...but dead is dead.

The pratical difference is that the high velocity rounds will ruin more meat...when you dress a deer shot with a 7mm mag (which leans towards the velocity preference) and one shot with a 45-70 (which leans towards energy) you will see the difference. The 7mm will alot of ruined meat around the entry and exit hole..the 45-70 leaves you the option to "eat right up to the whole".

They both kill, sometimes by different methods...but they both kill.

I should add that the advantage of the faster cartridges (usually) is that they shoot flatter and you don't have to compensate for yardage...as much. While another advantage of the slower cartridges (which usually shoot heavier bullets) is that you don't have to worry about bullets 'failing' and if it its a shoulder...that shoulder, and that animial, is destroyed. Whereas the lighter/faster bullet *might* hit the shoulder bone and fall apart. Leaving you with a tough tracking assignment.

wyotimberghost

Both work together. I personally prefer velocity simply because it makes for flatter shots, and I hunt in the wide open desert a lot. If you just hunt in thick trees, energy is probably better. If you are somewhere in between, flip a coin to decide which one is better.

Paul L Mohr

Actually it has more to do with bullet design and shot placement depending one what you are hunting. All the velocity and energy in the world will do you no good if the bullet doesn't do what it is suposed to and you don't put it in the right spot.

You need to know what type of bullet to use on the game you are hunting and know the anotomy well enough to make a lethal shot. Varmint bullets and FMJ's really don't work that well on large game. One under penitrates and causes lots of damage and the other over penitrates transfering very little energy and creating a poor wound channel. Same thing works with small game or varmints. A big game controlled expansion bullet will zip right thru before the bullet has time to react and expand.

That's my opinion any way.

Paul

James B

On paper the are tied directly to each other. Increase Velocity and energy will increase. In the field, Sectional density, bullet construction and always shot placement are whats important. Its a combination of weight, density, construction, momentem and velocity. Also bullet frontal area and shape play a part. Its a complex subject with many opinions and not to many things written in stone. For deer, I like a bullet like the Partition and Ballistic tip in a medium caliber size at about 26-2800 fps. Sectional density of about 200- 230. For elk Move the SD up to 220 -290. For really big stuff the 280 and up SD bullets are probably best. One exception can be bullets with large frontal areas like the 44 and 45 calibers. Here bullets of less SD still seem to do a good job of killing game. Big bullets create big wound channels even with very low velocity. Many big game animals have dropped to the old black powder bullets like the 45-70 lumbering along at 1100-1200 FPS with 500 grain bullets. Ask the remanining Buffalo.

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Soilarch

CMA, I'm not saying you exagerated your results or even that they are untypical. You experience is a perfect example of what James B is saying about Sectional Density. If my math is correct the SD of your 12gauge slugs is less than .160 (I just picked a diameter of .60 out of thin air...the foster style would be bigger w/ a lower SD and if the platinum tips are sabots they will probably be less than .60) All those other rifle loads you listed have SD around .240 or greater. (again, if my math is correct) That old 45-70 , even with a 405gr load has a .275 SD!!! So not all "big n' slows" will give you your shotgun results.

HOWEVER, James: do you mean that bullets of lesser SD do a better job, or that you can get away with lower SD in the larger claibers? I've read some articles about how the theory of SD is useless so this has all those old articles running through the back of my mind again

CMA: BTW I've seen and had many such experience with slugs...so I'm not trying to discredit you at all.

Hunter4life81: See, I told you its a big can of worms. Haha, next we'll discuss hydrostatic shock, TKO, and other "Killing Power" scales.

There are scales and equations that favor the "big n' slow" and some that that favor the "fast n' light"...because their originators were usually biased towards one camp or the other. Bottom line.... you can get away with ALOT if you put that bullet where it belongs. Granted, this means accuracy AND the bullet's ability to get to the vitals.

James B

Sectional density is not really a theory by any means. Where bullet construction is also important you have to have a degree of SD to constuct a good bullet. A 100 grain 30 caliber bullet vs a 220 grain 30 caliber bullet will show you that penetration is just not going to be there with the light bullet of the same diameter. You can gain only so much with bullet lenght, a bullet can only be so long and still leave powder room in the case and work through the action and chamber. SD has much to do with how a bullet expands and how it penetrats. Bullets constructed in the same manner but more density are going to penetrate better where the same bullet construction with less SD will penetrate less but probably expand more. Maybe to much if velocity is to high or bigger bones are encountered.

Its not really the same but SD was explained to me by comparing a cup full of snow loosly packed and thrown compared to a cup full of snow packed as hard as you can get it then thrown. If you have enough SD for penetration then a bigger bullet with less SD may still do the job because of the size of the wound channel. This can also be affected by the size and shape of the bullet nose as evident with cast bullets of the LBT style or wide nose. These push what you might call a sonic wave or a pressure wave ahead of the wide nose causing a great amount of tissue damage and a large wound channel. This even at what most would conside very low velocity

While we talk about high velocity rounds, Hydrostatic shock or whatever they choose to call it, starts at about 2500 fps. This is sort of the magic number where high velocity starts.

Better quit I get wrapped up when this subject come up. All of this is why a hand loader with the choice we have today in bullets can tailor a load for a rifle once considered to small to do a job, to do almost any job. Within Reason.

Hunter4life81

WEll fellas thnx for the info!! i didn't mean to open a can of worms i was just tryin to get more knowledgeand idea of what i should look for in charactoristics in a bullet (more the ballistics than the construction).....

Well i gladly made my choice in bulletsleaning towards the 150grainscirocco bonds from remington.. but that doesn't mean i won't try other bullets like that accubond from federal and the fail safe from winchester!! but what really caught myeye on the scirocco was the retained nrg and velocticy and the falt shotting...B/c imowhy not have bothn not have to pick and choose which one you'd rather had but thats just how i see things! And as long as i place the bullet in the right place there shouldn't be no need for a folow up shot and that means more meat on my table!!!!!


But keep in mind i will try others before making my final choice but so far thats my choice right now!!!

skeeter 7MM

Problem with paper theories is not proven in real life. If your minds load shoots the eye out of a donkey at 200 yards well your laughing but if you can't hit the donkey in the arse...then what!

First Imatch the bullet to the usage, this considers all characteristics of the bullet design/intended usage and as well what I require in the field. I then test my preferred bullets on the range shooting all ranges I expect to in the field - AKA - accuracy. If these 2 are covered everything else just falls into place. I will take accuracy over trajectory if all things are considered equal (meaning still meets the requirement or usage). A few inchs at 300 yards and meager loss in foot lbs really means squat to me. IfI can get both then yehaw.

Good luck with the scirroco's.