RE: 7mm mag or 300 win for a lady hunter?
 

RE: 7mm mag or 300 win for a lady hunter?
 

Believe it or not I was able to shoot a 270 WSM and a 7mm rem mag side by side last night. Ran into an old archeryfriend at Sportsmans Warehouse and he let me shoot his wife's 270 and his 7mag. I really liked the 270. I took into consideration that a lot of you are saying the 270 is too light for elk, but the ballistics charts that he gave me to compare were very, very close on the 270 WSM and the 7 mag. I know very little about guns so maybe I'm reading this whole thing wrong. The 270 actually had a little morekenetic energythan the 7 mag at 300 yds. 270 WSM w/150 grain bullet2175 and 7 magw/160 grain bullet2015.(Got these numbers from the FederalPremiumbooklet.)

RE: 7mm mag or 300 win for a lady hunter?
 

Bringing up the subject of elk hunting with a .270 is sure to get a reaction on this board. Horror stories about animals shot with regular .270 Winchesters using deer bullets - maybe not hit all that well - animal gets away and is not recovered. The .270 caliber gets blamed . . . .

Get the .270 WSM. Loaded with a Nosler Accubond, or one of the other premium bullets; this gun will kill elk or black bear most efficiently - every bit as well as 7 Rem Mag. My primary elk rifle is a .270 Ackley, almost identical in performance to the .270 WSM. Of the seven elk I have killed with this rifle, all were on the ground and dead in less than two seconds. Several were over 400 yards away. I have a 7 STW and a .300 Win Mag. They sit in gun safe most of the time.

RE: 7mm mag or 300 win for a lady hunter?
 

Using that logic

the 7mmremmag will kill elk or black bear every bit as well as a 300winmag

the 300winmag will kill elk every bit as well as a 338winmag.

and on and on and on:)

RE: 7mm mag or 300 win for a lady hunter?
 

You whatever logic you choose. I have been around elk and elk hunters all of my life. ON THIS SITE is the only place that the 270 is not enough gun for elk. I have seen them hit and I have seen then go down like a rock. I have never seen one fairly hit that didn't expire very quickly. And Stubble your probably right to a point or I should say Roscoe is right. The difference between an elk hit fairly with a 270 or a 338 Mag will end in the same positive result.

If you want to use a 270, 280 or 7x57 and you can place your sjots well and PASS when you can't then you are a well armed elk hunter and a good ethical hunter.

An exapmle is a guy that I hunt with a LOT. In many years, I have never seen him place a shot less than right on the money. I Have however seen him PASS on many shots because he was not sure he could hit that ten ring. If you can hunt like he does, you can use a 280 like he does with excellent results. Do your homework and if you like a caliber and its at or above the legal caliber allowed in your state, then use it. Chances are the internet flaws with the 270 won't cause a problem one. I am not knocking someone who wants to use a 50 BMG for elk if he wants, the 270 has take to many elk to count over the last 80 years or so. It will still be doing it as long as people hunt elk. Try the 270 and YOU BE THE JUDGE.

RE: 7mm mag or 300 win for a lady hunter?
 

That 270 wsm would serve you well.

RE: 7mm mag or 300 win for a lady hunter?
 

I agree and I might add that if you like the way it shoots and don't mind the recoil, the 7MM Mag is a good choice. Its just not my choice. Good Luck

RE: 7mm mag or 300 win for a lady hunter?
 

An interesting statement coming on the heels of thediscussion just covered.
Almost sounds like a littleafter thought saying, "a little more thump would be a good thing, if you can do it...."

BTW, I consider the 30-06 and the 7mmRemMag to be equivalent cartridges.

RE: 7mm mag or 300 win for a lady hunter?
 

A little more thump is sure not what I had in mind. What I mean is that if the 7 Mag jerks your chain then by all means, BUY IT. I have seen no real world difference on elk between the rifles from 6.5x55 on up. This, if the hunter does his part. In these calibers, the Thump is provided by the hunter.:DHe does his part, the rifle will do its part.

RE: 7mm mag or 300 win for a lady hunter?
 

I agree completely. Once you are into the threshold of adequate elk calibers, I wouldn't go up the power/recoil ladder any higher than my tolerance for recoil will permit. If she can shoot the .270 WSM comfortably, great. If the 7 Mag or, especially, the .300 Winchester, is uncomfortable to shoot -and gets a flinch reflex started -she isn't going to shoot it as well. I still think the 7-08has the best horsepower to recoil ratio of any caliber discussed here - but the .270 WSM shoots flatter and if the sharper recoil impulse isn't above her recoil tolerance, then buy the WSM. Good shot placement with either caliber using one of these new premium bonded bullets is going to work.

RE: 7mm mag or 300 win for a lady hunter?
 

I remember seeing this same concept used by Remington to advertise the 7 Rem Mag back when it was first introduced. There was an ad in Outdoor Life magazine that touted it as "shoots a flat as a .270 . . . hits as hard as a 30-06" or words to that effect.

RE: 7mm mag or 300 win for a lady hunter?
 

regardless of what some say here, people DO have MORE problems w/ elk as the caliber gets smaller. You can drop an elk in its tracks with a 22short "If you hit it right". I would rule out all calibers that dont offer 165gr bullets or larger. However, dont get something that is uncomfortable to shoot. My wife shoots a 300win mag and its ported. there is nothing wrong with a brake or porting, especially a brake that screws off when you go hunting. the big calibers DO perform better, but you must be able to handle them. if the 7mag was a bit much, try a 30-06, if it was ok get a 300mag ect or stick w/ the 7mag.

RE: 7mm mag or 300 win for a lady hunter?
 

i say the 7mm mag for any hunter

RE: 7mm mag or 300 win for a lady hunter?
 

NVMIKE,



but don't you think that is a little too straight forward for most folks?

================================================== ==

Of course, Barnes makes the 180 grain "original" for the 270 but in my years here I have not heard it mentioned once.... but, but, but then I won't have a "flat shooter" any more! Only the infamous BeaverJack mentioned the 160 grain Partition as a 270 "patch". Both are semi-solutions, but no....

RE: 7mm mag or 300 win for a lady hunter?
 

I have used the heavy bullets in the 270 but they are not needed for elk as the 150 grain X and Partitions and even the 130 X and Partitions work perfectly fine. By those standards then you would have to forget the 140 grain 284 bullets which are used as much or more that any other bullet weight in the 7MM's. By that math, the 264 Win Mag would be out but the 30-30 and 35 Remington would be in. Math won't properly rule in or rule out many cartridges. I would suspect that SD. is as important or more important that bullet weight. What will pentrate better a 180 grain 44 bullet or a 160 grain 264 bullet? I will get out of this one though because its hijacking the original posters intent.

RE: 7mm mag or 300 win for a lady hunter?
 

"about animals shot with regular .270 Winchesters using deer bullets - maybe not hit all that well - "

I believe this about says it all. The capabilities of all the various and sundry cartridges ranging from .277" up to .323" are pretty muchtotally dependent upon the design of the bullets that are used.

For example, not too many years ago, the great Elmer Keith was fond ofsaying "the .30/'06 is barely adequate for shooting jackrabbits," and "even the .30/40 Krag is a better killer of deer, elk, and moose than the .30/'06", etc. Actually he was basing this opinion on the fact that early on, the '06 was loaded with bullets which were too fragile for the higher velocities at which the '06 launched them. So although he was damning the cartreidge, his opinbion was actually based on poor bullet performance!

If you use a tough .277" bullet, such as the Nosler Partition or Barnes X, at .270 Win velocitiesor faster,you will be hard pressed to tell the differencein performance on game between it anda .30 or 8mm of comparable sectional density and constructionthat hits the same place! I have examined enough wound channels from rounds of this type over the years to know! Despite the fact that I own rifles in 7mm Rem. Mag., .308 Norma Mag., .375 H&H, 416 Rigby and .45/70, these days I find myself using a Ruger No. 1A 7X57mm with 175-grain Nosler bullets at a MV of 2720 FPS more and more for all game, and have yet to feel handicapped.

RE: 7mm mag or 300 win for a lady hunter?
 

I agree. However from my manuals, thats a very, very hot loaded 175 grain. My Hornady shows a max of 2300 fps. However thats just a 22 inch barrel.

RE: 7mm mag or 300 win for a lady hunter?
 

You are absolutely correct. However, most loads given in manuals for the 7X57mm are kept within the SAAMI pressure standards of not much over 40,000 PSI in deference to the pre-M98 Mausers out there, and even worse, the old 7X57mm Remington rolling block rifles which some people insist on shooting.

In a modern, strong action, with slow powders, (I started my heavy 175-grain loading experimentsout using N205, then switched to MRP, and now I useRE 22) and a LONG THROAT, I am convinced that IT IS NOT POSSIBLE TO GET ENOUGH RE22 INTO THE 7x57MM CASE to cause excessive pressures when using175-grain bullets IN ANY OF MY 7X57MM'S! 54 grains of RE22 is all I can settle into the case and still be able to start and seat a 175-grain bullet without bulging the case shoulder. I have fired this load in a Ruger M77, a Ruger No. 1A, two Chilean M1935 ('98's) cavalry carbines, a Venezuelan FN M1924, and an M1956 Mannlicher Schoenauer. In these rifles, even the primer shows no signs of flattening whatsoever, and extraction is "normal".It gives 2729 FPS at 10' from the muzzle from22" Ruger barrels. From the 20" tube of the M/S, it only shows 2680 FPS @ 10'.

Naturally, any such load must be approached very cautiously from at least 10% below! As Bob Hagel cautioned in his book GAME LOADS AND PRACTICAL BALLISTICS FOR THE AMERICAN HUNTER, "All rifles are individuals, and what may be a maximum load in one might be quite mild in another, and vice-versa"!

RE: 7mm mag or 300 win for a lady hunter?
 

Thanks. I do most of loading from the 48th Ed Of the Lyman handbook. Mainly because they are a good source for cast bullets. The same cautions extend to loading my 6.5x55's. Another cartridge thats easy on hunters and hard on critters.;)

RE: 7mm mag or 300 win for a lady hunter?
 

I too like the Lyman handbooks. Primarily because they are not in the business of selling either powder or jacketed bullets, so have no particular ox in the show, so to speak, and use all suitable bullets and powders in their data. Then, of course, the fact that they do publish cast-bullet data for the majority of rounds is also of great value. In addition, they give information for a lot of great, old obsolete cartridges too, which I like because of my interest in the old ones......

RE: 7mm mag or 300 win for a lady hunter?
 

Something about 7mmRemMag or 300WinMag for lady hunter?

RE: 7mm mag or 300 win for a lady hunter?
 

I meant that I am getting a bit off topic.

RE: 7mm mag or 300 win for a lady hunter?
 

Savage has a gun out that has an adjustable muzzle brake you can give the end a twist and you can shoot with or without the muzzle break.

RE: 7mm mag or 300 win for a lady hunter?
 

Just wanted to let everyone know that I finally made a decision and bought the 7mm Rem Mag today. Although I truly feel that I would have been just fine with any of the other calibers alot of you suggested. The recoil is something that with time I'm sure I'll get used to. I ended up with the Remington 700 SPS model. Not the cheapest, not the most expensive, but hopefully something that will work for my hunting pursuits.

RE: 7mm mag or 300 win for a lady hunter?
 

Congratualtions.
Welcome to the "family."

Good choice.

RE: 7mm mag or 300 win for a lady hunter?
 

Thats a great rifle. I am a SPS fan as well. Good luck. I have owned five 7 Mags over the years.

RE: 7mm mag or 300 win for a lady hunter?
 

I believe you will be pleased with the 7mm Mag. Now we need to get you started reloading for it!!

RE: 7mm mag or 300 win for a lady hunter?
 

Nice choiceon caliber.

RE: 7mm mag or 300 win for a lady hunter?
 

7mm- Good Choice!

For what's is worth- I would have recommended the 7mm08. Is there a better big game rifle when it comes to recoil? Putting my 12 yr and wife in one to start off. Beauty of guns, you can always upgrade, they hold their value over time.

RE: 7mm mag or 300 win for a lady hunter?
 

Even better, you don't really need to upgrade unless you like more recoil.;)

RE: 7mm mag or 300 win for a lady hunter?
 

First, regarding the 7mmRemMag,
then, after discussing the weaker 7-08....
Actions, they say, speak louder than words.

I'm betting your numerous "repeat performances" with the 7mmRemMag over a lifetime were based on something more than just an incidental increase in recoil.... (like performance?)

Perhaps "re-writing your past history" a bit?

RE: 7mm mag or 300 win for a lady hunter?
 

I wouldn'tdwell too much on the difference in performancebetween the 7MM-08 and the 7 Rem Mag. It's about 100 yards of impact velocity. I would be comfortable shooting out to 300 yards or so with the 7MM-08; and be willing to stretch that out to about 400 with the 7 Rem Mag. Quite a price to pay for about twice as much recoil, though. And if you're not comfortable shooting beyond 300 yards anyway, it's amoot point.

RE: 7mm mag or 300 win for a lady hunter?
 

Im wondering if EKM sleeps with some kind of 300+ magnum at night? There definitely seems to be an infatuation with them there. Maybewe can introduce legislation to ban anything under a .30 bore? :eek:


<---Wonders if something gutshot with a 416 rigby dies quicker than something gutshot with a lowly 270 or 280.

RE: 7mm mag or 300 win for a lady hunter?
 

Roskoe,
I'm surprised, usually your stuff is gospel....

Barnes #3, most accurate, fastest powder loadings for 140-175 weight bullets.
More like 200 yards impact velocity difference, not 100.

8 Pound Rifle for the 7mmRem Mag
7 Pound Rifle for the 7-08
Same loads from above....

175 gr = 35% more recoil
160 gr = 41% more recoil
140 gr = 75% more recoill

Not twice, not near twice especially when tempered by the relatively light recoils involved overall.
================================================== =

Doe Dump,

** I believe the discussions here have dwelled on 7mm to 308 caliber cartridges with my recommendation being a standard caliber 30-06 (though a 7mmRemMag isessentially equivalent).
For the sake of my sub .308 rifles (including my childhood .270, the prairie dog line up: 6mm, 223, 22LR etc), I'd hate to seeyour proposedban on sub-.308 cartridges go thru.

** I live in a good part of town, so all the weaponry "sleeps" in the gun safe.

** Since this is a discussion of
(1) elk hunting (West of the Mississippi)....
(2) and cartridge selection for western topography and ranging....

Have you been involved with either?
Or is this just kind of a "peanut gallery" thing?

** Are you volunteering your services fortesting yourhypothesis?
================================================== ==

Lady Arwen,
Colorado Springs, aye?

So where in Colorado do you plan on going after your elk (generally)?
You've made a high performance, yetquite managable choice --- worry not.

RE: 7mm mag or 300 win for a lady hunter?
 

No I used the 7 Mags first then found out that the 7mm-08 was just as effective for me and never looked back at the 7 Mag again. I tried ALL the big ones first. I had Magnumitis but recovered from it. A good Bullet in a good spot is what it takes and many standard caliber will do the job without the recoil and muzzle blast and wasted escaping gases. The 7mm-08 is just one of them. Anyone who knows rifles and history knows that rifles like the 7x57 have taken elk and MUCH bigger game as has the 270, 280, 308 6.5x55, 300 Savage 30-40 Krag. The bullet and where you put it does the work. The caliber? Not nearly as important. Find aGOOD bullet with a SD of 250 or more at 25-2600 fps+ and you can take about any game this country has to offer. Increase the SD a little and you can decrease the velocity a little. Then its up to the hunter and what he or she can do with it.

RE: 7mm mag or 300 win for a lady hunter?
 

F-I-V-E 7mmRemMags?
You must have been a really slow to catch on.

Bought one sold it. Came back again.
Bought another one. Sold it. Came back again.
Bought another one. Sold it. Came back again.
Bought another one. Sold it. Came back again.
Bought yet another one. Sold it.... and now....

Favoriteelk cartridge preference isa 30-06.
================================================== =

BTW, if I was going to sand bag the deal, I'd sure take a 7X57 over a 7-08... over 100 years old and a (slightly) better performer to boot. I kinda like the old stuff.

RE: 7mm mag or 300 win for a lady hunter?
 

Nope havent been elk hunting yet. Justgiggling about your obsession with large caliber guns. Every time someone asks about caliber you always chime in with the magnum part. I understand you like to use as much gun as you cant stand and still shoot acurately..but there is a point that you reach that you can say enough gun...dead is dead.


As far as testing the hypothesis...sorry I carry guns that I can shoot comfortably and accurately with enough boom to get the job done. So I'd say a 150 gr NP out of a 270 travelling 2900-3000 fps should be suffice for nearly anything supposing said hunter canPUT THEBULLET WHERE IT COUNTS is enough boom.



Only question that comes to mind is... If someone gut shoots an elk with a 338 and loses it will nothing under a 35 caliber bullet be allowed in your camp then? :D


Happy hunting! Always fun aggravating you[8D]

RE: 7mm mag or 300 win for a lady hunter?
 

Doe Dump,

** I believe the discussions here have dwelled on 7mm to 308 caliber cartridges with my recommendation being a standard caliber 30-06 (though a 7mmRemMag isessentially equivalent). For the sake of my sub .308 rifles (including my childhood .270; the prairie dog battery: 6mm, 223; youth guns22LR etc), I'd hate to seeyour proposedban on sub-.308 cartridges go thru. No dreaded Mags in any of those places.

** Ah, so it IS a "peanut gallery" thing ----shows.
FWIW, we have had a single documented case where an elk was shot "too far back" with a heavy magnum. It staggered, laid down, and died on the spot where it was shot --- it was an unfortunate, but illustrative example of "having enough leeway in one's cartridge selection for those occassions when things don't go just right". [Of course some folks will jump on that single data point to build their gospel, only on the internet can folks guarantee to "dump" their game perfectlyevery time.]30-06 still remained/remains the camp minimum. BTW some of the earlier fly weight cartridge wrecks we had did NOT involve gut shots.

** Revisit your words....
Are you sure youdon't want tovolunteer your services fortestingout thathypothesis of yours?
Think of it ascommunity service.

RE: 7mm mag or 300 win for a lady hunter?
 

I have seen several gut shot elk hit with a 243 that just laid down and died on the spot to so that don't mean diddely squat.;)Gut shots are gut shots.

On the 7 Mags, The first time I switched was when I lost my right eye. I went from a right hand bolt to a LH bolt. Still was not happy with it. Then afriend talked me into buying his Ruger so I tried that brand. Didn't care much for it and sold it. Then I took a couple more in on trade while running my gun shop. Tried different bullets and loads. Decided that the 280 did everything I needed from a 284 bullet with less recoil so I just quit on them.

Running my gun store for twenty years gave me a chance to try just about everything that I had any interest in. Way back I wanted to like the 243 and the 7 Mag.But try as I might, I have no use for either.

I like the old ones to but I can't really tell any difference between the 7MM-08 and 7X57.

RE: 7mm mag or 300 win for a lady hunter?
 

Really?
If your words are in ernest, then youhave immensely moreexperience withgut shot elk than I do.
(1) How in the heck did that happen? and,
(2) How did you continue to let yourself beinvolved withit?
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I think it is likely that most of us,if health forced us to go from being a righty to a lefty (or vice versa), would not be able to handle as much as we used to. If I only had one eye, then I'd also probably seek out modest recoil.
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Essentially is no difference (very slight) between 7x57 and 7-08 would be the reason --- other than the 90 or soyears --- "big" improvementgiven all that time to come up with a better mouse trap.