i have both the .17 and 3 .223's and the .17feels like a toy against the .223. they are not even in the same ball park. you can pop a crow at 300 + yards with a .223. i would say abouthalf that with the .17 if the wind is not blowing. the .17 hmr is nice little gun but it is just to small.

all right!!

thanks guys, i think that will help me make my decision