Which caliber? Custom timber rifle for elk/deer
 

I have recenly inherited a German Mauser manufactured around 1940 and am going to have a custom timber rifle built on the action. This is going to be a fairly light "mountain rifle" that will be used to hunt both deer and elk in thick timber. I am hoping that this rifle will be used for shots of 200 yards or less. If I think the shots may be longer, I'll take my .270 Wby Mag. I want to keep the action length the same, so a short-action round is out of the question. I also want to keep the recoil to a minimum (too many shoulder surgeries). My question is, should I just keep the chambering the same (8 x 57) or should I go with something like 30-06, .280 Rem, .338-06 or 7 x 57? What other suggestions might you have? The gun will sport a 23" fluted Lilja stainless barrel, composite stock and Pachmayr Decelerator recoil pad. It will most likely wear a Leupold 2x7 Compact scope in Conetrol rings.

Good Dogwork and Good Hunting

RE: Which caliber? Custom timber rifle for elk/deer
 

Just for ease of finding bullets I would opt for the 30-06. But Weatherby is now chambering and loading for the 338-06, I think this would be a better choice for heavy timber with the heavier bullet and, it can launch equal weight bullets about 200fps faster than the 30-06 can. If you reload even better reason for the 338-06. A 225gr bullet at about 2700fps. is definetly more than a 200 yard gun.

RE: Which caliber? Custom timber rifle for elk/deer
 

bigbulls - How's the kick? I've got a bad shoulder. It's also going to be used for deer and I will certainly handload.

Good Dogwork and Good Hunting

RE: Which caliber? Custom timber rifle for elk/deer
 

There's nothing wrong with a PROPERLY LOADED 8X57mm for your purposes, but not when used with U.S. factory ammo!! IF you rebarrel, my choices would be, in order of preference: 1. Any version of .338/'06; 2. Any version of .35 Whelen; 3. A .358 Winchester.

Keep yore powder dry!!

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RE: Which caliber? Custom timber rifle for elk/deer
 

35whelen.

RE: Which caliber? Custom timber rifle for elk/deer
 

The kick will , as I'm sure you know, depend alot on your rifle. I don't have one personally but a friend does and he sayes it's about like a 7mag wich is only a tad more than the 30-06. I don't think you should have a problem with it with the Pachmayr pad and a well designed stock. Ofcourse that depends on how bad your shoulder is. Look into a laminated stock it will give you a bit more weight to soften the recoil.

RE: Which caliber? Custom timber rifle for elk/deer
 

I can handle the recoil of my .270 Wby Mag in the factory rifle (walnut stock) and find it roughly equivalent to most 7mm Rem Mags. My shoulder gives me trouble with any of the .300 mags and I practically gave away a sweet-shooting .338 Win Mag because it was just too much.

Please remember this rifle will be dual-purpose in nature: Deer and elk. Does everyone really think the .338/06 and .35 Whelen are the best combo deer/elk cartridges in the woods? I'm really surprised I haven't heard any praises for the .280 Rem or the the good ol' .270 WCF. And isn't the 8 x 57 handloaded with 170-200 grain bullets at 2600-2800 fps nearly perfect for a dual-purpose timber rifle? Wouldn't a 7 x 57 work well?

Good Dogwork and Good Hunting

Edited by - seattlesetters on 10/10/2002 10:54:41

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RE: Which caliber? Custom timber rifle for elk/deer
 

I'd like to keep the recoil of the rifle below 20 ft. lbs. if possible. I guess I could go with the 23-29 ft. lbs. of the 338/06 or .35 Whelen if that's what is necessary to get the job done, but I won't be able to practice very much with these rounds. I can't even sleep on my right side because my shoulder is so messed up, so getting kicked by a rather heavy recoiling rifle in it 40 or 50 times at the bench is out of the question. I will just have to shoot two, maybe three groups and call it a session. I can manage to put a few dozen rounds per session through my .270 Wby Mag but that is with plenty of rest between groups (that barrel gets HOT!).

Good Dogwork and Good Hunting

RE: Which caliber? Custom timber rifle for elk/deer
 

You know a 260 remington or 7/08 would do the trick for what your after...125 grain partition in the 260 rem and a 140 parition in the 7-08 and your set unless you can find some x bullets that will shoot well out of the gun or some other similiar premium bullet.

RE: Which caliber? Custom timber rifle for elk/deer
 

oldelkhunter - Would either of those two short-action rounds present a problem in the Mauser-length action? Would they kind of "rattle around in there" when a guy was trying to chamber a round? If not, my problem may be solved.

Good Dogwork and Good Hunting

RE: Which caliber? Custom timber rifle for elk/deer
 

Without question this is a project made for the 280. You most likely would have no further need for the 7 Mag.

RE: Which caliber? Custom timber rifle for elk/deer
 

I like the sound of OTIS's post. 338-06 or 35 whelen. They be tuff to beat.

brian

RE: Which caliber? Custom timber rifle for elk/deer
 

i think the 35whelen is one of the best under rated calibers out there for under 300yds on aniamls from medium game and up.
i would give my left &%# to see it become a regular caliber in many rifles today..

RE: Which caliber? Custom timber rifle for elk/deer
 

Have you thought about keeping the rifle as is? Nothing wrong with the original, and maybe it might be worth something in the future as well as keeping it the way it was handed down to you for sentimental value. Have you asked if it has a story behind it. It may have been used by your loved one and has a lot of history behind it. I would check this out from the person that gave it to you. Just a thought.


Hornet Man


Hornet Man

RE: Which caliber? Custom timber rifle for elk/deer
 

My vote is for 338-06. Great performance at reasonable hunting ranges.

RE: Which caliber? Custom timber rifle for elk/deer
 

First of all, I would like to thank all of you who have taken the time to reply. It gladdens my heart that there are so many like-minded individuals willing to share their experience and expertise. Hunters truly are the epitome of the human spirit...

In regards to those who suggest the .338/06: I am very carefully considering this cartridge for my "rifle of a lifetime" but I am still very concerned about the amount of recoil generated by the round in a 7lb. rig. I have a VERY tender shoulder and I would hate to spend $2750 on a rifle that I couldn't shoot. I have already sold off a .300 Wby Mag and a .338 Win Mag because they hurt me too much at the bench for me to put in the appropriate amount of practice required to feel comfortable with each rifle. I think I should try and find some people with a .338/06 so I can shoot a few and see if I can tolerate the recoil. If so, I will happily follow all the good advice and chamber the rifle for this cartridge. If not, the 7 x 57 or the original chambering of 8 x 57 may end up being the right choice.

Hornet Man - Thank you especially for your thoughtful reply. I have given this gift a great deal of thought and respect, and there is indeed a great story behind the rifle (and a CZ Mod 29 that came with it). However, this rifle was given to me precisely because I am the one in our family who carries on the hunter's way of life. The Kentucky Colonel who brought the rifle home from WWII knew I would do the right thing and continue to tradition of hunting deer and elk (he did so in Arizona). I am expected to make this into an heirloom piece that will hopefully be handed down to many generations of hunters. By the way, my daughter is already quite intrigued with hunting, and she goes with me on a regular basis. She won't be shooting this rifle, though. I will get her one of her own.

Also, the riflesmith who will build the rig informs me that he would have no problem with making this a short-action chambering. Does this change anyone's mind?

Good Dogwork and Good Hunting

RE: Which caliber? Custom timber rifle for elk/deer
 

If the barrel is in good condition, save your money and keep the 8x57. Use the saved money to buy good reloading equipment to reload for the cartridge as there isn't much choice out there for usable factory loads. Handloaded, the 8x57 will pretty much equal the 30-06 but with a larger diameter bullet- kind of a halfway point between a 30-06 and a 35 Whelen. In fact a 338-06 isn't much of a change from the 8mm other than the fact that you can shoot heavier bullets yet.

If you already have a CZ-29 you would want to reload for that one too. You can get amazing accuracy out of one of those rifles. One of the best bolt action rifles ever made IMHO.

Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms... who's bringing the chips?

RE: Which caliber? Custom timber rifle for elk/deer
 

seattlesetters. the .338/'06 is a great cartridge, but in a rifle of the weight you are talking about, IT WILL DEFINITELY EXCEED your recoil limitation (+- 20 ft/lb). The .338/06 IS NOT JUST A SHORT-RANGE woods rifle!! As you mention, the 8X57JS with a 200 grain bullet at 2600 FPS would be great at woods ranges, and beyond too! I have an 8X60 RS shooting a 200 grain Nosler Partition or Speer spitzer at 2620 FPS. This one's good to over 200 yards, and this from an old J.P. Sauer double rifle!!

Keep yore powder dry!!

RE: Which caliber? Custom timber rifle for elk/deer
 

Why not a .30-06? I know some of you think its an overrated cartridge but wouldn't its continuing popularity prove otherwise? You could shoot 165gr bullets for deer or elk. And if recoil hurts your shoulder then practicing from the bench is the worse thing. Check loads and sight in from the bench but practice from sitting or kneeling or using shooting sticks. The felt recoil will be alot less since your body can move with the recoil.

RE: Which caliber? Custom timber rifle for elk/deer
 

I think I have narrowed it down to these choices: 8x57JS, 7X57, .308 Win, .338-06. Are the .308 and 7X57 too light for the job? Hasn't just about everything on Earth been taken cleanly with both rounds? I am asking for trouble by having a block installed to make the .308 work in the longer action? Please help me out.

Also, does anyone have any experience with either the 8mm-06 or the 8mm/08? I know they are both about the equivalent of the 8X57JS but it would be kind of cool to have a custom rifle chambered for a wildcat round.

Good Dogwork and Good Hunting

RE: Which caliber? Custom timber rifle for elk/deer
 

I like the .35 whelen. And I like blonds. And I like Ford pick-ups.

You will probably have your project gun chambered in the cartridge you like best. And thats the way it should be.

And I like apple pie. And I like onion sandwiches. And.....

Robin

RE: Which caliber? Custom timber rifle for elk/deer
 

Seattle--plenty of mauser actions are already coming in converted to 308 winchester why wouldn't the 260 or 7-08 work...They will be fine in your gun and the Bull(s) will not be after they get wacked by one and the recoil is neglible.

RE: Which caliber? Custom timber rifle for elk/deer
 

oldelkhunter - I'm starting to lean that way. It seems to me that a guy spending $2750 on a custom rifle being built by a riflesmith who also builds benchrest rifles should probably have that rifle chambered for a very accurate round that is capable of taking advantage of all that expensive accuracy (i.e. something usable out to 300-350 yards). Both those fill that bill, with the .260 perhaps being a bit flatter at extreme ranges and the 7mm/08 being able to handle heavier bullets. Although many of my friends have rifles chambered for the various 6.5mm cartridges and all claim they handle elk just fine with 140gr Partitions, I think I may feel more comfortable shooting an elk with the 7mm 160gr Partition (or Grand Slam or Bear Claw or A-Frame or X-Bullet, etc.). I could use 139-140gr bulets for deer and 150gr for combo hunts.

Unless you honestly think the .260 Rem (I would rather have this round than any other) is enough gun for elk out to 200 yds or so, I think I'll have the gun chambered for 7mm/08. But I can still be convinced to go with the .260, if you and the gang are willing to try...

Good Dogwork and Good Hunting

RE: Which caliber? Custom timber rifle for elk/deer
 

IMHO the 7mm-08 is a better all around cartridge than the 260. It is very versatile, accurate, and offers good ballistics with low recoil.

RE: Which caliber? Custom timber rifle for elk/deer
 

I haven't looked at the Nosler Manual(260 remington) to see what energy/velocity you will have at 200 yards but I am sure it will be more than ample .. That bullet 125 partition or 140 is a penetrating SOB . No flies on the 7-08 either ... Bigger better animals have been killed by the 7x57 and 6.5x55 and these are just the modern equivalents. If it were me I would use 140 grain partitions..x bullets..whatever premium bullet shoots best.

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RE: Which caliber? Custom timber rifle for elk/deer
 

As much as I like my 35 Whelen, I honestly can't recommend it, considering your requirement for less recoil. They do kick... more than the 30-06. If you put a brake on it, then, yes, that would be my choice. Personally, I don't see the 7-08 or the 260 as being good elk cartridges past about 150-200yds. I know they will kill elk further out than that, but, to me, it's too iffy.... too light a bullet. For deer they would be great.


"Progress, far from consisting in change, depends on retentiveness..those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." Santayana

RE: Which caliber? Custom timber rifle for elk/deer
 

Building a rifle like you describe can pose some interesting possibilities. I have some "frankenstein" type mausers myself, and they are fun guns. One thing that is going to limit you is keeping the weight at 7 lbs. That might require a light weight stock and a very light contour barrel. I personally would consider putting a little more meat into this gun just to make it easier to shoot. But if lightweight and tolerable recoil are high on your list, the lighter cartridges mentioned would definately be better. My 338/06 mauser weighs 9 1/4 lbs unloaded, and with 200 gr bullets at 2700 fps recoil is pretty mild. But load 250 gr bullets at max velocities, and it becomes a chore to shoot very many shots off a bench. I have a 7x57 M98 that weighs 8 lbs, and you can shoot it all day without developing a flinch. I guess what I'm saying is dont build a lightweight 338 if you are planning on shooting heavy loads very much. Good luck with whatever you choose.

RE: Which caliber? Custom timber rifle for elk/deer
 

My riflesmith informs me that I can have this rifle made as light as 6 1/4 lbs (without scope). I'm leaning more towards 7 - 7 1/2 lbs. It will have a light sythetic stock, Jewel trigger, three-position safety and a 23" Lilja Stainless Octagon barrel with target crown in a fairly light contour. The action will be totally trued and all parts will be teflon coated. I guess I could go a bit heavier, but I already have a factory .270 Wby Mag that weighs about 9 1/4 lbs and I don't particularly care to tote around that much weight every time I go in the woods. But that Weatherby absolutely HAMMERS elk and deer at all reasonable ranges so I'll put up with it when I think I may need the extra reach.

I am tending to agree with otis that I shouldn't go with a short case. But I also like the wisdom provided by oldelkhunter, who says these smaller rounds do indeed pack enough freight for elk. A muzzle brake is out of the question (I also have only one ear, and I'd like to protect it!). I think either the .270 WCF or the .280 Rem are great choices, but I feel they overlap too much with the Weatherby. So now, I think I'm leaning towards a couple of new characters, and a couple of the old. If the 7x57 is the equivalent of the 7mm/08, wouldn't that be a nice choice? And if the 8x57JS is close to the performance of the .338-06 but with less recoil, wouldn't that also make an equally excellent choice? And what about two wildcats, the 6.5mm-06 or the 8mm-06? I will definitely handload, so I should be able to wring out maximum performance from any of these cartridges.

Good Dogwork and Good Hunting

RE: Which caliber? Custom timber rifle for elk/deer
 

Seattle...I was thinking about this last nite just go with the 7x57 or 6.5x55. The recoil will be about the same as the short cases and chambered correctly they will be extremely accurate. The other rounds everyone else proposed were fine rounds but can bite especially in a lightweight rifle. Prime example is a 280 remington in a light rifle tell me it doesn't kick like a 7 mag or equivalent mag. Anyone that says they( 260 6.5x55 7x57 7-08) are not enough for elk or good for only 150-200 yards is probably smoking some illegal weed they found on National Forest Land. Shot Placement Shot Placement Shot Placement

[Deleted]
 

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RE: Which caliber? Custom timber rifle for elk/deer
 

wildcats are always more interesting and even though it was factory made for some time get a .35 whelen
the .338-06 would also be a good choice

propmahn
you can never have too many guns

RE: Which caliber? Custom timber rifle for elk/deer
 

I assume I'm the one being referred to when you insinuate I've been smokin weed.... ha ha ha ...ok, you are a funny guy.
Now, if you will go back and read my post again, I said that I knew they would kill elk, but that IN MY OPINION they are not a good choice at long range.....long range being defined as over 200yds. I have heard of folks killing elk with 243's also, but it doesn't make it a good choice. If that is the only choice you have, then I would shoot a heavy-for-caliber premium bullet and get as close as possible....under 200yds would be good. Again, this is only my opinion... everybody has one. I'm assuming when the gentleman posted this thread, he was wanting opinions, not irrefutable statements of fact... "my way or the highway"....... perhaps I'm mistaken.
Now, say something else funny.........


"Progress, far from consisting in change, depends on retentiveness..those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." Santayana

RE: Which caliber? Custom timber rifle for elk/deer
 

A little humour breaks up the day Hornetguy no ill will intended. A 140 grain 6.5 has as much sectional density as a 180 grain 30 caliber if not more . I have friends that shoot elk with the good old 270 with 130 grain noslers and 140 failsafes and think nothing of it. Bottomline The person who is seeking advice needs a light recoiling lightweight rifle that will do the job on Elk at up to 200 yards. ImHO I think any 260-7-08 7x57 6.5x55 will kill at a greater range than that. That said I not shoot any Bull myself further than 350 yards with most calibers out there with the exception of 30 caliber Mags or larger. I like to shoot those things as close as I can get, spend a lot less sleepless nights doing it that way..

RE: Which caliber? Custom timber rifle for elk/deer
 

Seattlesetters
What ever you choose, Thanks for passing the hunting tradition down to your daughter. That is what I am doing with my daughters also. Happy hunting

Hornet Man


Hornet Man

RE: Which caliber? Custom timber rifle for elk/deer
 

Ok, I've narrowed it down to the old Mauser chamberings of: 6.5x55, 7x57 and 8x57JS. Now what about thoughts on these cartridges exclusively, as well as scopes and bullets?

Good Dogwork and Good Hunting

Edited by - seattlesetters on 10/09/2002 22:14:16

RE: Which caliber? Custom timber rifle for elk/deer
 

seattlesetters,
I answered your e-mail but will be gone bowhunting for a few days. I sent you some info on the 8mm/06 as you requested. it is a handload only propostion, but is a very adequate round for what you seek. Not necessarily better than the round already mentioned, just another flavor. You can even have a chamber cut for 8mm/06 Ackely Improved, and have RCBS make you some dies from a slug made of your chamber. That's a lot of trouble to go through when there are plenty of other rounds more readily available. But the plain jane 8mm/06 wil do the job you require, and recoil is tolerable.
the 170 grain round-nose is a very good choice, but there are recipes for balls from 125 grains all the way to 250 grains.

RE: Which caliber? Custom timber rifle for elk/deer
 

Oldelkhunter.... I agree with your recommendation of the 6.5x55 or 7mm Mauser out to 200yds. I wouldn't hesitate to use my 6.5 if I had to.. I'd probably use a 160gr bullet, though.

"Progress, far from consisting in change, depends on retentiveness..those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." Santayana