RE: Which caliber? Custom timber rifle for elk/deer
 

I have shot the 6.5x55 and the 7x57 a good bit, and I tend to think of the 7x57 as more of a big game cartridge. If I was building this rifle and knew I would use it for elk, I would go with the 7mm because of the greater selection of heavy bullets. 160 gr bullets minimum for elk is what I would do. Twenty years ago when I started fooling with 7x57 seriously, I tried to turn it into a 270 by loading 140 gr and lighter bullets to get the mv up around 2800 and better. That looks good on the chrono screen, but I can tell you that the 160 gr bullets work a whole lot better on game. The deer cant tell the difference between 2600 and 2800 and the smidgen of drop gain between 140 and 160 gr bullets isnt worth warm spit. It is far offset by the extra weight and sectional density of the heavier bullet in my experience. Paper ballistics and field performance dont always match up like we might think. I cant say much about the 6.5 in terms of game performance, I just dont have the experience in the field with it. Youre not talking about a whole lot of difference between the two though, I just have it in my mind that the 6.5 is more like an overgrown 243. I tend to lean towards the larger calibers anyway, based on my perceptions from the field. Which ever one you choose, I doubt you will ever say I wish I had chosen the other one.

RE: Which caliber? Custom timber rifle for elk/deer
 

OK. I've settled on either the 6.5x55mm Swedish or the 7x57mm Mauser.

The way I see it, the Swedish round seems to be on the light side for elk. It would also seem that this cartridge, when being considered as a dual-purpose round, is more of a longer range (250 - 350 yds) deer/antelope number with 120-125gr bullets at 3000fps and a very certain killer of medium size game out to 300 yds with 140gr premium bullets at 2800fps.

However, with these same 140gr bullets, we are still looking at 1600ft-lbs of energy at 300 yds. The 7mm 160gr bullets, started out at the same velocity, pack 1700ft-lbs of energy at 300yds. And since the 6.5mm 140gr bullets have a sectional density slightly greater than 160gr 7mm bullets, I would think both cartridge's performance on elk out to that distance would be adequate and nearly equal.

Now, I know the medium-bore magnum proponents of the world might find that blasphemy, but I have first-hand knowledge of what high sectional density, smaller-caliber premium bullets will do to elk.

I have taken two large bulls with .277 caliber, 150gr Partitions. A 6-pt at 275yds, which was hit in the spine, the other at 325yds, which is the farthest shot I have ever taken at a big game animal. That 5-pt bull was quartering toward me. The bullet entered at the front point of the shoulder, broke it, took out the lungs and a small portion of the heart, and left an exit wound the size of a half dollar between the last two ribs (which were broken) on the other side of the animal. There was lung matter sprayed 5-6 ft behind the bull. Both dropped at the shot as if hit by the hammer of Thor. That is SERIOUS penetration, and AWESOME performance.<img src=icon_smile_dead.gif border=0 align=middle>

As you can see, I'll have no qualms about shooting an elk at woods ranges with either the 6.5x55mm or the 7x57mm. Now I just have to determine whether the tri-purpose (antelope, deer and elk) capability of the 6.5x55 outweighs the rich African tradition and lore of the 7x57.

As for scopes, I'm considering a Leupold 2x7 Compact for the 7mm and a Leupold Vari-X III 2.5x8 for the 6.5mm. Whattya think?

Good Dogwork and Good Hunting

Edited by - seattlesetters on 10/10/2002 17:29:46

[Deleted]
 

[Deleted by Admins]

RE: Which caliber? Custom timber rifle for elk/deer
 

I agree with Otis...2.5x8 VIII is the way to go on a lightweight rifle...if you want to spend big bucks and step up a notch in glass go for the Swarovski 3x9.

RE: Which caliber? Custom timber rifle for elk/deer
 

Sounds like the Leupold Vari-X III in 2.5x8 is the way to go. As far as spending the extra money for a Swarovski 3x9, I don't think I've ever decided against shooting something when looking through a Leupold that I would have unhesitatingly blasted if I had a Swarovski. I'll use the extra money for a Lilja barrel instead of a Douglas, a three-position safety rather than a two, and a Jewel trigger in place of a Timney. I think these upgrades are well worth it!

I'm still agonizing over the selection of a cartridge. After digesting all you have said, I'm might just keep this thing chambered for 8x57JS and have another custom rig built on a pre-1964 Win Mod 70 in 6x55mm Swedish! I can't think of a better battery for hunting all of North America's non-dangerous game.

Anybody wanna buy a .270 Wby? <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

Good Dogwork and Good Hunting

Edited by - seattlesetters on 10/11/2002 05:58:44

RE: Which caliber? Custom timber rifle for elk/deer
 

I would concur with keeping your current chambering and loading it up if necessary. The 8mm Mauser is already in the .30-06 class. Elk have been taken handily with .30-06s for generations. There's no need to magnumize this weapon. Elk are big deer not pachyderms and the last time I checked they weren't inclined to charge and try to eat you. =O)

Whatever's wrong ain't the bow and whatever's right is the archer.

RE: Which caliber? Custom timber rifle for elk/deer
 

.... I can understand your dilemma about which cartridge to choose.. but I can't see how you will justify staying with the 8MM? I thought recoil was a large knob in this decision? It doesn't matter what you call a cartridge, if you propel a bullet of &quot;x&quot; weight at &quot;y&quot; speed, you will get &quot;z&quot; recoil.... whether it's called a 30-06, 8mm, 280, 35 Whelen.... whatever. When you get up into the 8mm range of bullet weight..180-200gr... and propel them at 2500-2700fps, you've got recoil...

&quot;Progress, far from consisting in change, depends on retentiveness..those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.&quot; Santayana

RE: Which caliber? Custom timber rifle for elk/deer
 

I'm not a big physics guy, and I don't really have an explanation for it, but all the charts I've seen list the recoil generated by the 8x57JS as well under 20ft-lbs with hunting-weight bullets at all practical velocities.

From what some of the more learned people in the field tell me, it has to do with pressure. Apparently, they say, the Mauser cartridges are among the most efficient ever designed, and the 8mm actually kicks less than a similar weight bullet in 30-06. Go figure. <img src=icon_smile_question.gif border=0 align=middle>

Good Dogwork and Good Hunting

Edited by - seattlesetters on 10/12/2002 00:59:08

RE: Which caliber? Custom timber rifle for elk/deer
 

seattlesetters

I didn't get on to this discussion until late but I wanted to put my $.02 in. I had a M98 put together for me a few years back in a 6.5-06 and let me tell you it is the best round I have ever shot. It has done an extremely good job of downing Elk, Deer, Bear, Pigs and is murder on coyotes. It doesn't really have much recoil, and if you plan to reload there is a good selection of bullets in 6.5mm. You seem to have made up you're mind, I just wanted to give you something else to think about.

Andrew
>>>--------->X<---------<<<

RE: Which caliber? Custom timber rifle for elk/deer
 

ACLakey - I think I have made up my mind to go with the 6.5x55mm Swedish. I am glad you are confirming what some of the others have said about 6.5mm's being a great all-around caliber.

I had considered the 6.5-06 but I think that cartridge is a bit too close to my .270 Wby Mag in terms of long range performance, and I want to make sure this custom rig doesn't have too much overlap with rifles I already own (and love).

I'd be interested to hear, however, how your 6.5-06 has performed on deer and, especially, elk. <img src=icon_smile_question.gif border=0 align=middle>

Wouldn't mind hearing how it does on blackies and hogs, either.

Many of my friends have 6.5s in various configurations and ALL[b] of them agree that they are unbelievable killers of game at all reasonable ranges. All of these same buddies routinely use them on elk, too.

Good Dogwork and Good Hunting

Edited by - seattlesetters on 10/13/2002 23:36:30

Edited by - seattlesetters on 10/13/2002 23:41:41

Edited by - seattlesetters on 10/13/2002 23:56:07

RE: Which caliber? Custom timber rifle for elk/deer
 

I think you have made a good decision in the 6.5mm. As you stated the 6.5 does have a high section density. I have gotten mind blowing penitration out of the round. It is very flat shooting and loaded with high quality bullets it will kill anything on this continent. I am not suggesting using it on dangerous charging game, but if you get a good shot opertunity you will be pleased with the rusults. I have a very good friend who took my 6.5-06 on a hunt and ended taking a buffalo with it. He said it went about 20yd and crumpled. So far the rifle has taken Buffalo, Elk, Deer, Bear, Pigs, Varments, and a Cougar. This gun has replaced my 30-06 and 338 win mag as my go-to Elk gun as well. People think the round is to light for big game, but they can't argue with the performance of the round. I think the 6.5mm bullet has the charcteristics for accuracy and penitration that most other calibers can't touch. I have never had an animal go more than 80yds after being shot. Most go down rather quickly. Of the two Elk I shot one went down in it's tracks, the other staggered about 50ft before falling over. One deer shot in the lungs went the 80yds I talked about. The others died very quickly. Both the pigs I shot It looked like someone chopped the legs out from under them. They just dropped straight to the ground.

I can praise the round all night, but I think I have gotten my point accross. When it comes to hunting North American game of any size it is the only rifel I use. I feel you have made a very wise and thought out decision. You're mind should rest easy about it handeling Elk and deer. Enough said.

Andrew
>>>--------->X<---------<<<

RE: Which caliber? Custom timber rifle for elk/deer
 

So the 6.5 it is. I will let you all know how the rifle turns out.

Good Dogwork and Good Hunting

RE: Which caliber? Custom timber rifle for elk/deer
 

I've had a change of heart. What do you all think? I think I may keep this gun chambered for the original 8x57JS and have yet another custom rifle built on a pre '64 Mod 70 action in .260 Rem.

That would be a nice pair of deer/elk rifles to tote around the woods, now wouldn't it?

Good Dogwork and Good Hunting

RE: Which caliber? Custom timber rifle for elk/deer
 

I've decided to try and develop a wildcat cartridge that will fill the bill for this discussion. <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle> It will be an 8mm round based on the .300 WSM case. I will try and figure out dimensions and see if I can get some die company to build something for me. Anybody have any helpful hints?

Good Dogwork and Good Hunting

Edited by - seattlesetters on 12/12/2002 16:30:44

RE: Which caliber? Custom timber rifle for elk/deer
 

There is already an 8mm-300WSM if I am not badly mistaken. I think I saw the barrel on Pac Nors site.

I stand corrected, there are both 338 and 35-300WSM but not an 8mm. I wonder why? Maybe because there are a 338 and 35.

http://www.pac-nor.com/

Edited by - frizzellr on 12/12/2002 18:45:30

RE: Which caliber? Custom timber rifle for elk/deer
 

frizzellr - Outstanding! <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle> Thanks for the info. Do you have the address?

Good Dogwork and Good Hunting

RE: Which caliber? Custom timber rifle for elk/deer
 

7mm EXP Rem is the answer!!!

ALL DAY, EVERY DAY,IN THE WOODS...

RE: Which caliber? Custom timber rifle for elk/deer
 

OK, folks. I've narrowed it down to these three: 8mm-06, .338-06 and .350 Rem Mag. I know they will all get the job done, but I still have that desire for a truly custom rifle to have something a little different stamped on the barrel. Any thoughts?

Also, is there a supply of 8mm-06 brass or does one have to form it on their own?

Good Dogwork and Good Hunting

RE: Which caliber? Custom timber rifle for elk/deer
 

Just use 30/06 brass and expand the necks with a .323 ball expander. this can be done when full-length-sizing used 30/06 brass or you can take brand new (unfired) 30/06 brass and run the expander ball through it using 8mm/06 dies set to neck-size-only.
Either way it is a fire form issue, and once fire formed in your 8mm/06 chamber you need only neck size from then on. I usually
full-length-size the rounds I'll use for hunting but neck-size-only my target rounds.

RE: Which caliber? Custom timber rifle for elk/deer
 

Whew, quite a bit of readig to get caught up on this one. Pretty interesting though. You asked for some thoughts, here's a few.

Well, since Remington is bringing back the 350 Rem Mag in the 673 it isn't as different as it once was. Not only that but this thing kicks about as hard as the 35 Whelen.

The 338-06 has been commericalized by A-Square and Weatherby is chambering for it, so it isn't as rare either. And of the three its is the second hardest kicker.

Lastly there's the 8mm-06. Just to get my prejudices out of the way, I'm partial to the .323 bore. But this one hasn't been commericalized either, making it the more different than the other two. It would be a bit more work to use though. I'd go with this one though, where the choice mine.

Last question, what happened with the 8mm/300 WSM or 8MM/300 Rem SAUM? Did these not work out or just kick too much?

RE: Which caliber? Custom timber rifle for elk/deer
 

I think I could handle the recoil of an 8mm wildcat based on a short magnum case, but I would rather spend the money on the custom rifle rather than the custom dies.

I can get a Jewell trigger and three-position safety bought and installed for less than the cost of custom reamer and dies.

Another consideration is that I want to be able to use 220gr bullets in this rifle every once in a while, and no one could guarantee me that the long bullet would work well in the short case.

Lastly, my Mauser action is full-length anyway, so I would get no benefits from a short-action cartridge.



Good Dogwork and Good Hunting

RE: Which caliber? Custom timber rifle for elk/deer
 

Obviously I am also biased in favor of the 8mm/06. The dies for this wildcat are not that expensive. The brass is obtainable just by shooting your own 30/06 (if you have one) and new unfired or once fired 30/06 is a good deal as I'm sure you know. If you begin with a military mauser in 8X57 with a good bore, you can just have it reamed to the new chamber. And by the way, there are some decent recipies for 220 grain balls in the 8mm/06 load that will travel at around 2200 to 2400 fps, but the 170 grain and 200 grainers are probably better choices.
There are cheaper ways to go...............but its your money so get what you want.



Edited by - 8mm/06 on 01/09/2003 20:26:08