so we all think theory 2
08-24-2005, 07:48 AM
#1
Nontypical Buck
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Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Western Nebraska
Posts: 3,393
so we all think theory 2
and I agree but then can someone explain the interest in nosler's ballistic tip.....and Hornady's SST?.....certainly these are accurate loads....but fall under theory 1.
Further the high sales of "small for caliber" ammunition such as 150 grain .30-06 loads?.,....more theory 1.
Am I wrong?
Further the high sales of "small for caliber" ammunition such as 150 grain .30-06 loads?.,....more theory 1.
Am I wrong?
08-24-2005, 08:15 AM
#2
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RE: so we all think theory 2
But I find that its a mix with BT's. I get much more tissue damage and trama to the oragans with a BT or gameking(mix of theory2 and 1)than I do with a barnes X (theory2 kinda). I also have rarely had a BT or gameking fail to exit. Almost all shots are under 200 yards however.
08-24-2005, 08:33 AM
#3
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Wall SD USA & Jamestown ND
Posts: 11,474
RE: so we all think theory 2
The balliatic tip fills my needs very well. The do a fair amount of damage but on deer, nearly always exit. I shot four mulies last fall with the 25-06 and the 100 and 115 grain ballistic tips. Three exited and the fourth was a quarting away shot that left the bullet just onder the skin after going through the opposite shoulder.
You have a point there though, where as the ballistic tips almost always exit on deer, I find them very effective even when they don't.
You have a point there though, where as the ballistic tips almost always exit on deer, I find them very effective even when they don't.
08-24-2005, 08:49 AM
#4
Nontypical Buck
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RE: so we all think theory 2
I heard that Nosler redesigned the ballistic tip as a hunting bullet where formerly it was a varmint bullet.
I used it years ago with super results but then one day after a very well placed hit, my deer ran off like it wasn't touched. I looked for a long time and finally found it in a thicket only forty yards from where it had been hit. The lack of a blood trail was the telling issue.
Since then I changed to theory two and have been happier. I no longer use BTs or the like even though they have a great track record of killing deer in their tracks.
A helluvalotta chat has come about because of this entire issue. A great bullet in the eyes of some.....and seriously maligned in the eyes of others.
Hornady's SST is another great bullet.....same thing.....no exit hole in many cases. Their "heavy for caliber" interlocks however are a different story.. These seem to be among the best deer bullets for me.
I used it years ago with super results but then one day after a very well placed hit, my deer ran off like it wasn't touched. I looked for a long time and finally found it in a thicket only forty yards from where it had been hit. The lack of a blood trail was the telling issue.
Since then I changed to theory two and have been happier. I no longer use BTs or the like even though they have a great track record of killing deer in their tracks.
A helluvalotta chat has come about because of this entire issue. A great bullet in the eyes of some.....and seriously maligned in the eyes of others.
Hornady's SST is another great bullet.....same thing.....no exit hole in many cases. Their "heavy for caliber" interlocks however are a different story.. These seem to be among the best deer bullets for me.
08-24-2005, 09:41 AM
#5
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RE: so we all think theory 2
So what do you like these days on say your typical 150lb deer? I am a gameking guy. I guess cause I am lazy and they seem to be so easy to work up a load for. I slowly am really loving these accubonds. but hate the price. I believe the accubond fills the theory1 and 2. Would like to hear your opinion.
I have never shot a deer with partitions, only used them on large game.
I have never shot a deer with partitions, only used them on large game.
08-24-2005, 11:15 AM
#6
Nontypical Buck
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RE: so we all think theory 2
As far as I'm concerned any heavy for caliber bullet is a fine deer bullet. 120 gr in 25 cal...140 grain in 264 cal...150 grain in 270 cal etc
I just happen to be a handloader so I can taylor to fit my interest.....I like the Hornady interlock and also heavy for caliber. One can spend a lot more on a bullet and not kill deer any deader.
The debate will always rage on because such bullets as A-Max and other target bullets will kill deer nicely.....properly placed. Folks doing this will always think the guys shooting such higher cost bullets are just idiots or something.....hey...whatever it takes.
While I haven't bought a factory loaded shell in over 20 years, it wouldn't bother me in the least to just buy a box of 180 grain 30-06 corelokts and go deer hunting. It's all that is needed.
I just happen to be a handloader so I can taylor to fit my interest.....I like the Hornady interlock and also heavy for caliber. One can spend a lot more on a bullet and not kill deer any deader.
The debate will always rage on because such bullets as A-Max and other target bullets will kill deer nicely.....properly placed. Folks doing this will always think the guys shooting such higher cost bullets are just idiots or something.....hey...whatever it takes.
While I haven't bought a factory loaded shell in over 20 years, it wouldn't bother me in the least to just buy a box of 180 grain 30-06 corelokts and go deer hunting. It's all that is needed.
08-24-2005, 11:39 AM
#7
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RE: so we all think theory 2
I can't remember where I turned against the coreloks. One day I got a press, and since then for some reason I refused to use em and started bad mouthing them cause I couldn't get subMOA groups.. But thinking back, they served me for over a decade without an issue. I don't think they have the best tolerances, but I can't think of one deer I hit in the lungs that didn't fall.
08-24-2005, 11:57 AM
#8
Nontypical Buck
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RE: so we all think theory 2
Very few handloaders use corelokts.....after all we wanted something better. Sierra, Speer, Nosler, and Hornady was marketing something better....."custom" bullets.....and the competition between each other eventually led to much more accurate bullets. Big green didn't catch on for a long time. Even today.....premium ammunition from Remington, Winchester, and Federal, utilizes bullets made by those custom bullet companies.
The most presitgious bullet years ago was Nosler's partition for handloaders. In the 70s if you had a box of handloads with Nosler Partitions you was the best decked out man in the woods......never mind that the guy shooting those old nasty silver tips killed his deer just as dead!!!!! Partitions killed them if you just hit the deer in the ear!!!!! or so it seemed.
It wasn't until the cost of hunting and especially the elk hunting got to be so expensive that premium bullets really became popular. The margin of those bullets over conventional bullets is slim.....but when one dumps $5,000 on the table to hunt elk on a horse he's willing to spend a trifle more on a bullet that gives him a small edge over the core lokt.(and other such bullets). This edge is the margin that causes almost all the chatter on bullets over forums like this.
In short.....everyone is right.....we might just not be able to see the other man's point of view......and of course...he's wrong!!!
The most presitgious bullet years ago was Nosler's partition for handloaders. In the 70s if you had a box of handloads with Nosler Partitions you was the best decked out man in the woods......never mind that the guy shooting those old nasty silver tips killed his deer just as dead!!!!! Partitions killed them if you just hit the deer in the ear!!!!! or so it seemed.
It wasn't until the cost of hunting and especially the elk hunting got to be so expensive that premium bullets really became popular. The margin of those bullets over conventional bullets is slim.....but when one dumps $5,000 on the table to hunt elk on a horse he's willing to spend a trifle more on a bullet that gives him a small edge over the core lokt.(and other such bullets). This edge is the margin that causes almost all the chatter on bullets over forums like this.
In short.....everyone is right.....we might just not be able to see the other man's point of view......and of course...he's wrong!!!
08-24-2005, 12:24 PM
#9
Nontypical Buck
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RE: so we all think theory 2
ORIGINAL: Ridge Runner
vapo, I forget what year it was but used to be the BT was just a hollowpoint with a plastic tip, then when nosler discontinued the solid base boatail, the heavy for cal bt's were changed to the same makeup as the SBBT's, then to differentiate between what they were uses were intended, they were boxed differently, 50 per box for hunting bullets, 100-250 per box for varmint bullets. I know the 243/55-70 grs are varmint bullets but the 95 is for big game, in 25 cal the 85 gr is a varmit bullet the 100-115 are hunting bullets.
Also the SST is a bonded core bullet so it is somewhat controlled expansion. Why do I like BT's, well rick jamison who we know from shooting times reloading fame says if he wants to see how good a hunting rifle will shoot, he starts with a nosler BT, they work well for me.
RR
vapo, I forget what year it was but used to be the BT was just a hollowpoint with a plastic tip, then when nosler discontinued the solid base boatail, the heavy for cal bt's were changed to the same makeup as the SBBT's, then to differentiate between what they were uses were intended, they were boxed differently, 50 per box for hunting bullets, 100-250 per box for varmint bullets. I know the 243/55-70 grs are varmint bullets but the 95 is for big game, in 25 cal the 85 gr is a varmit bullet the 100-115 are hunting bullets.
Also the SST is a bonded core bullet so it is somewhat controlled expansion. Why do I like BT's, well rick jamison who we know from shooting times reloading fame says if he wants to see how good a hunting rifle will shoot, he starts with a nosler BT, they work well for me.
RR
About the SST....I doubt that it's a bonded bullet. Hornady had that bullet on the market for almost ten years prior to their making interbonds.....their first bonded bullets.
Further about Jamison.....agreed again...the Ballistic tip has a record of accuracy that is hard to beat.
