statjunk

I was thinking the other day why are the most common bullets used in muzzle loaders so heavy. In my .300 WM I shoot 180gr and in my muzzle loader I shoot 250gr. Why the difference in bullet weight?

Also why the large diameter bores? Can't they make a 30 cal muzzle loader with lighter bullets capable of 400+ yard shots?

Tom

PA Bow/Flinter

My uneducated guess is stability.

Rifle's have twists around 1:10"....ML...anywhere from 1:28" to 1:70" I think if you were to try toload such a small diameter bullet down such a fast twist barrel...you would severly mangle the bullet, thus getting eratic shot to shot preformance.

Plus with a smaller diameter barrel, you would lose the area needed to hold enough powder for adaquate power.

I could be, and probably am, way off...but that is what popped into my mind.

eldeguello

Nope. In order to increase the power of a ML, you must increase the size/weight of the bullet it shoots.

Why? Because the MV of muzzleloaders is limited by the breech design, which cannot stand up to the pressures needed to give a small caliber bullet the kind of velocities you need for thatlevel of performance. If you were to use a breech simialr to that on the smokeless powder Savage, which might indeed be strong enough, you'd still need a powder chamber twice or three times the diameter of the bore in order to be able to load the amount of slow-burning powder that you'd need to get the required muzzle velocity. Have you noticed the MV ratings of straight cartridges?

Rounds like the .32/40, .38/55, .375 Win., .45/70, etc., are all relatively low-velocity, short-range rounds. Even the bigger, bottle-necked .30/30, .32 Win. Special, etc., are pretty puny because they don't hold enough powder!

However, just because you can't get .270 Win. velocities from a muzzleloader doesn't mean you can't kill game with one at 400 yards! But to do so, you have to shoot so much that trajectory knowledge becomes second nature, and you have to develop accurate range estimation skills-or have time to use a good rangefider!

cayugad

While we hear a lot of hype of the "center fire speed -muzzle loaders" that's what most of it is.. hype. The average in line shooter will push 90-120 grains of powder. 100 grains being the average. That will give most projectiles around 1700 +-fps. While that's real good for the projectiles we use, a smaller projectile, while perhaps going faster just might not develop the energy need to cleanly dispatch large animals. When you do not have the speed necessary to get down range energy, the only alternative is to increase the weight of the projectile. Take for example the White rifle. Shoots 70 grains of powder and a 500 grain conical. The conical might be only moving at 1350 fps, but check the down range energy some time. Its amazing....

Small bores also fowl out faster.Since there is less diameter in the barrel, the burning of powder also fills the bore faster. Shoot a small .32 caliber squirrel rifle. You will understand.

I think the ballistics might have something to do with this question, but I really do not understand ballistics as much as I would like. I am sure some of these real shooters on the board might have a reason for the light weight black powder not working so well.

jaybe

So the reason they use the larger bullets is to make up for the slower speeds that muzzleloaders are kind of limited to (with a few exceptions - like those that can use smokeless powders). A .300 Win Mag pushes that 180 at around 3000 fps - that translates into a bunch of ft lbs of energy downrange. If it was only going out at 1400-1700 fps, it would be far less than is normally desired for a clean kill on a deer-sized animal. I don't have charts at my fingertips, but energy is a product of speed and weight; change either one downward, and energy goes down - sometimes way down.
Having said that, I know ofsome who are getting around 2000+fps with a 200 gr 10mm bullet in a sabot and finding it adequate for hunting (roughly approaching 30-30 specs.).But that 200 gr size seems to be about the minimum that we can go right now. Stick around - technology will change that soon (my guess).

statjunk

Could they theoretically make a muzzle loader that has a tapered chamber just beyond the primer so that you can get to pressures and velocities of centerfire cartridges? I realize the danger there, being that if you did not completely fill the chamber you'd be toast but is it possible? Is there anything out there like that already.

I'm also assuming that if they throw enough metal at the rifle that eventually it would stand up to the pressure. Is that a bad assumption?

Again just curious.

Tom

Pglasgow

It just seem impractical to me. It takes a jacketed bullet to stand up of 2800+ fps. In highpowered rifles, the outside dimensions of bullets are of groove diameter. It would be impossible to load such a bullet from the muzzle. So to use a jacketed bullet, one will need a sabot anyway.

The guy who owns mountainmolds.com is hooked on cast bullets for high-powered rifles. Some time ago, I read some of his comments about the accuracy of his 30-06 with the cast bullets. He was "elated" with 3 1/2" groups, with a scoped rifle. I also noticed that he loaded slower powders andachieved muzzle velocities in the 2400 fps range. This is probably the absolute limit for a cast bullet. Again the bullets are groove diameter (or they would never stabize which they don't do well anyway) and would be impossible to load from the muzzle.

What we achievealready with saboted bullets is remarkable, to say the least. Even so, I would expect that there will be improvements we have yet to see.

lemoyne

That is a bad assumtion the reason is the same as why you can not shoot smokeless powder in a muzzleloader .
With out the brass cartridge case to expand and seal the chamber expanding gas at 55 or 60 thousand pounds per sqare inch will cut its way right out through the breach plug threads.
There are several muzzleloaders on the market designed for smokeless powder and they require a great deal of care to be sure they are not overloadedthat is as close as it has come to what you are talking about at this time. Lee

Triple Se7en

You increase your odds for a harvest using a bigger ML bullet at slower speeds than a centerfire bullet exhibits. Yes you can harvest at 750fps using a 180gr sabot, but bigger is better in this sport -- all because the speeds are slower - bullet shapes are crude& we only get one shot.

IndyHunter83

I think one question that comes to my mind is "Aren't most ML seasons considered 'primitive weapons' season?". I have been shooting muzzleloaders since in was around 13 or 14 years of age. Its always been made clear to me that they are ment to be primitive weapons. I think its part of the challenge (although the new inlines aren't so primitive). My point is that I'm sure in theory they could (or maybe the already do) make a muzzle loader that can handle the higher pressures of the smokeless powerder. but then why not just go buy a centerfire? I'm only 23 so i don't know a whole heck of alot but i do know that they reason I use a muzzleloader is because its more challenging in curtain situations but also its more fun to shoot because they're more primitive. It test how close you can get and how good a hunter you are. Any fool can shoot an animal from 400 yds with a centerfire and their high velocitys but to get with in 150, 100, 75, 50 yds and then take your shot. That just gives a greater feeling of satisfaction to me. But like i said, I'm still just a kid and those are my thoughts.