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Old 07-09-2017, 05:59 PM   #1
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Default What caliber? This is the end of it

This is it. No need to argue. No need to comment - $5 fine for whining. 9mm is best defensive round, not gun.

http://concealednation.org/2014/10/f...heir-decision/
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Old 07-09-2017, 09:56 PM   #2
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The Federal Bureau of Incompetence has changed it's mind more on this subject than just about anything else. I'll stick to what I know for a fact I can defend myself with because I practice diligently and can shoot my sidearms well in a defensive situation. Like the old man, I've worked alongside police for a lot of years now. And I know 90% of them couldn't hit a barn wall from the inside. Most of the ones I know would be better served unloading their sidearms and using the damn thing as a club. Of course I'm sure there are exceptions but not to many from what I have witnessed over the years. I'm in no way stating that a 9mm is ineffective. I like the caliber myself. I just like the .45ACP more. In that article they stated that only 10%-20% of rounds fired in an exchange hit the target. That doesn't tell me to switch to 9mm so you can miss faster. That tells me you need to train your damn officers a hell of a lot more. Especially when they are being paid to carry a sidearm.
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Old 07-10-2017, 10:52 AM   #3
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Why can't LEO's shoot? Because it's not actually a major component of their job. We pay them to do a lot of things, and shooting is only one itty bitty, teeny weeny part of that job description. More often than not, a non-LEO civilian will be better practiced with a firearm than most officers, and the FBI as an LE agency isn't immune to that fact. Equally, we don't pay them to be as fit and strong as Division 1 linebackers. When you look at the physical course requirements the shooting qualification courses, the bar isn't set very high.

These aren't elite military operators (although some where in past lives), they're a lot closer to an average Joe in terms of physical capacity and marksmanship skills.

So while my splits with a 40 S&W or my favored 357sig might not be significantly different than those with a 9mm, it's not fair to place the same expectation on Agents or Officers.

Guys around the nation carry 38spcl revolvers every day - a round which was phased out of law enforcement and FBI use generations ago. The .40 S&W isn't going anywhere for civilian use. 9x19mm was the most popular centerfire pistol cartridge in the nation by a long margin before these changes, and it will remain to hold that title now after the FBI has changed over.

Something else worth noting in these decisions - special weapons and tactics teams are more prevalent than they were when the FBI (and LE agencies) swapped from the 9mm to the 40S&W, and the equipment held for the average officer is much better than it was 20-30yrs ago as well. In the Miami shootout, often cited as a major driving event behind the abandonment of the 9mm, however, in detailing that event, you'll note the officers & agents faced semiautomatic rifles with shotguns, pistols, and revolvers. I was young, but I remember the tide change when local Sheriff Deputies and State Troopers were outfitted with carbines in the 90's.

So what I see out of it all - the 9mm was found wanting, then the 40 S&W was a stop gap before they've realized no pistol is suitable to replace a rifle. A time for every tool.
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Old 07-10-2017, 11:48 AM   #4
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Not totally disagreeing with you Nomercy448, but one fact is, they carry as part of their job. By all accounts, they should be better trained than the average Joe Shmo with a CCW. Just stands to reason that the professionals should be better trained than the average citizen don't you think? Or at least close to it. Since they are the ones having to face criminals every day, putting themselves in that situation calls for better training not only for their own protection but also the protection of innocent civilians in the area of a conflict. Where does the FBI think those other 80% of rounds go? Off into the wild blue yonder never to be seen or heard from again?
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Old 07-10-2017, 02:15 PM   #5
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Sure - it's fair to say an officer or agent should have training, whereas, statistically, the average citizen does not.

How about swapping over to the average gun forum guy who has some give-a-schit about the FBI's use of 9mm vs. 40... I would contend that entire subset of American citizens will be better with a firearm than the average LEO or Agent. I know a retired officer who "didn't believe in gun ownership" and his only firearms he ever possessed were his duty pistol and patrol sweeper. I've fired more shots in the 2017 calendar year than he fired in 20yrs as an officer. He11, I've probably owned more firearms than the number of firearms he ever fired in his lifetime.

They're people. They're not professional marksmen. I've assisted qualification courses and coached/instructed remedial officers - between those and CCW courses and handgun courses, I can't say I've seen officers do better even than average citizens. People hold that expectation of expert marksmanship skill among officers and agents way too high.

The SWAT/HRT troops I've worked with and shot with tend to be able to manage a rifle and a pistol well. I'll readily defend that. But all of them I have met are practicing regularly and have a much more broad qualification and training platform than the typical duty officers.
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Old 07-10-2017, 02:40 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hunters_life View Post
I'm in no way stating that a 9mm is ineffective. I like the caliber myself. I just like the .45ACP more.
+1

The legendary 1911 .45 ACP has been around for 106 years and still isn't going anywhere anytime soon. The .45 will hit like a Mack truck and a bad guy is NOT going to be getting up!

If I could be so bold... I would still put the .45 ACP up against any Glock or any other type of "tactical tupperware"!
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Old 07-10-2017, 03:03 PM   #7
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As far as I am concerned the 9mm is on the lower edges of an effective man stopper. I believe many agencies went to the 9mm not only because the FBI using it started a cascade of agencies changing from wheel guns to 9mms but because smaller men and women could easier control the recoil over the .357 mag. For most of my law enforcement career I carried a mod 686 S&W .357 Mag in uniform and a .45 1911 in plain clothes. Now as a civilian I carry a .40 S&W most of the time because of it's size and because it has more punch than a 9mm or God forbid a .380. Just before I retired my agency switched over to the .357 Sig which is superior to the 9mm. So far as LE officers not being competent with their firearms, I can't speak for other agencies but my agency demanded better than competency and we qualified twice a year during daylight hours, once at night and once under winter weather conditions and at one time our course of fire went back to 50 yards with the handgun, so you can't paint every LE agency with the same brush. I am 70 years old and I must still qualify once a year to maintain my national carry privileges as a retired LE officer and normally I qualify with both a .357 Mag wheel gun and my .40 S&W Kahr MK 40, and a couple of months ago I fired a 97 percent on qualification. That said, most officers never get into a fire fight and a fire fight is under conditions that are much different than firing a qualifying score. It is because getting into firefights is not the norm and no matter how much you train, nothing can really prepare you for a fire fight until you are in one. So making a blanket statement that most law enforcement officers can't shoot straight is over simplified and very misleading. How many bullets go off into who knows where in war fired by professional soldiers. The fog of combat is far different from the controlled circumstances of the firing range, no matter how realistic and how much stress the instructors out on those firing the course.
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Old 07-10-2017, 04:01 PM   #8
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Oldtimr I have had my unfair share of armed conflicts. Both in war as well as civilian. I 100% agree with you that it is a different thing altogether than paper training. But there are many training programs out there that can be utilized that can effectively train our police officers to a much higher competency. I have no clue as to what agency you trained with or where, but I can tell you without a doubt that your training and qualifying program is by far not the norm. I can lump most of them in because I have worked with many all over the country. And a few around the world.
Nomercy448, you are damn well right I hold them to higher expectations. As well should you and everyone else of the public of this country. They are the ones putting themselves in the situations of dealing with criminals. I hold myself to a much higher expectation because of my business. If I have to open fire to protect my client, you can bet I am shooting with accuracy and not a hope and a prayer like most officers. I would expect every single firearm carrying police officer in this country to hold themselves up to the same expectations I do for myself. Train diligently so that muscle memory can take over in that oh chit moment. Sure, ammo costs and training time costs money. But what is that police officers life worth? Or better yet, what is your wife's and kids lives worth? What happens if they are out in public and one of those pitifully trained officers gets in a gun fight with a criminal. I'd bet you everything I own that you will be hoping and praying she isn't close enough to catch one of those 80% rounds that seemingly just disappear off in never never land.
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Old 07-10-2017, 08:38 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ButchA View Post
+1

The legendary 1911 .45 ACP has been around for 106 years and still isn't going anywhere anytime soon. The .45 will hit like a Mack truck and a bad guy is NOT going to be getting up!

If I could be so bold... I would still put the .45 ACP up against any Glock or any other type of "tactical tupperware"!
Did you know there is a Glock that will shoot 45acp ammunition.
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Old 07-11-2017, 03:20 AM   #10
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Yes... The Glock 21 a .45 but it's still a "plastic looking 2x4"....
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