RE: If you can talk the talk....you'd better.....
 

c903, I'm a little confused (which isn't all that surprising).<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle> How is having big bucks helping the gene pool if they aren't being hunted hard? If I am understanding your friend's theory correctly, he is correlating rack size with intelligence. However, if the deer can't be shot without reaching a certain rack size and aren't receiving hunting pressure, they aren't smarter just bigger. Without the hunting pressure there is no way to measure their intelligence. Since your friend isn't allowing the bucks to be shot, the dumb ones aren't being culled from the herd. So, in theory, he would have big dumb deer running around. Maybe I read your post wrong, but what I have described would seem to make sense to me. Please clarify if I am misunderstanding you. Thanks.

Edited by - huntingbry on 09/19/2002 08:54:57

RE: If you can talk the talk....you'd better.....
 

I agree that passing up and letting them grow is good. But one thing I have learned in Deer Management, is that at times, you have to take a few smaller ones to allow some of them to grow. You also have to be willing to shoot the ones that show signs of genetic problems. Most would pass them but I have learned to take them and keep them from breeding! That then gives more room, and better chance for high quality bucks to breed does! Afterall, it is in the genes!!!!!

Der Jagd Meister
aka [email protected]
aka [email protected]

RE: If you can talk the talk....you'd better.....
 

HuntingBry

Hmmm! It appears that for many years I have had it &quot;bass ackwards.&quot; I have always thought that too much pressure, even a little pressure, on a mature buck, to the degree he instinctively feels you are specifically dogging him, was what you had better not do. That is, unless, you want to witness a long-term vanishing act that would make David Copperfield appear to be a bumbling amateur.

You put a big buck on high alert in the area I am talking about, you would have to buy some repelling gear, wear one of those heavy jumping suits the forest firefighters use when jumping in amongst trees and brush, and attach a very big and bright flashlight to your bow.

Just how do you put pressure on a buck to assure he learns to be wily? As often as possible, tromp though every square foot of your hunting area? Invade his sanctuaries? Constantly shoot at him but purposely miss? Slightly wound him every so often? Jump from behind a tree and yell &quot;Boo!&quot;

When a buck becomes aware of the presence of humans in his territory, I highly doubt he cares about determining whether you are hunting him, or are you are after someone else? In the particular area I am talking about, I have never seen any prohibited bucks casually grazing beneath my stand, or standing in full view along the tree lines while loudly cheering for their side.

There is one thing I am positive about, and you would agree if you were to hunt the area I am referring to, I am not going to question my friend's knowledge and practice. As long as I can hunt that particular area/land, he can tell me that deer can fly and I will tell him I believe it, and that a big buck has a nest in the tree where my stand is located. :)

RE: If you can talk the talk....you'd better.....
 

Wolfen and James Vee I was not refering to either of you, from your post you both do the talk and the walk. I was refering to someone else who made a snide remark. My apologies to the two of you. Yes I view you both as elitest, but not ones that look down on folks who are proud and happy with a 4 point.

Wolfen you were walking the line one this one:

&quot;YEEEESSSSSSS!!! You da man! Way to walk the walk! If you can't run with the big dogs then stay on the porch.&quot;

But I have gotten to know you a little better and I know it was noty meant to be derogatory.

There was one comment that was made that if you look for it you will see I was not alone in feeling as though someone was sitting on a high horse.

One more thing, I did take my hat off to James Vee, and as I said if where I hunted was not overpopulated with deer and we were only allowed to take one buck a year I would probably by know be a trophy hunter, but hey I plan on filling my freezer as quickly as I can this year(I hope) then when there is enough room for just one more I will become a trophy hunter for the rest of the season. Like I have said before if I have a choice between a immature buck and a doe, the doe is down, as a matter of fact it would have to be a decent 8 point before I would choose a buck over a doe. Now if I have a choice between two bucks the big boy is going down.

The Tazman aka Martin Price
Founder and President of
Virginia Disabled Outdoorsmen Club

RE: If you can talk the talk....you'd better.....
 

c903, I see now. I thought that your friend was only allowing people to hunt his property when he felt the bucks were big enough to shoot by his standards and then once one was shot there was no hunting allowed again for 4 years. If that were the case then my theory would hold true. However, from your last post, I take it that the property is regularly hunted, but the landowner stipulates which mature bucks are allowed to be taken. Therefore, they are exposed to hunting pressure which makes them wary, yet they are allowed (by direction of the landowner) to grow big and smart. That is a sound management practice and sounds like some place to hunt. Re-reading your initial post after your last post it makes a lot more sense. Thanks for the clarification.

RE: If you can talk the talk....you'd better.....
 

Tazman,

I think the word &quot;elitist&quot; is a bad choice if you are not looking down on those who wait for big bucks. An elitist is a person who considers themselves better than others. They are the finest, or most distinguished. On occcasion I do get the opinion that some trophy hunters are elitists, but when I see meat hunters looking down their noses at the trophy hunter, I see the same elitist attitudes in them.

Although a person wanting to shoot big bucks could be an elitist, so could a person who shoots anything that moves. There is noting elite about wanting to shoot a larger buck and passing smaller ones up to get the chance. That is simply a choice and there is absolutely nothing wrong or elite about it. I think that categorizing all trophy hunters as elitists is simply wrong.

RE: If you can talk the talk....you'd better.....
 

In the interest of heading off conflict in our fellowship here, let me postulate:

I still can't believe that a ten-point is not good enough! James Vee must be hunting some primo property to have that kind of confidence. I suppose if I knew those bruisers were running around on a property I was hunting, I might possibly consider letting one walk away, but I still can't imagine ten points not being big enough.

Having said that, if a ten point is as young as you say, imagine what he'll look like next year, if someone like me doesn't take him before that.

James Vee, what state are you hunting in, anyway?

<font color=green>How many vegetables had to die to make your stupid salad!</font id=green>

RE: If you can talk the talk....you'd better.....
 

Congrats James on walking &quot;your&quot; walk. I think it's great. Letting them go and grow is super. Alot of folks think someone would be crazy to do that, but I agree.
I think alot of folks go through a &quot;maturing&quot; as a hunter...if thats the right word? For me, I don't have the desire to shoot small bucks anymore...killed alot of them. But I also don't put anyone down for doing so. If that's your thing, go for it and I'm happy for you. We have some young hunters in our group, and I am pumped up when they kill a buck at all! Last season one of our young hunters killed his first buck, and I think I might have been more excited than he was...even though it wasnt a big one.
I also rememember a time that any deer with bone on his head was what I was after, and when I did get that spike<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>you couldn't have wiped that smile off of me! But I think that over time, some hunters get tired of shooting small bucks and choose to raise their standards. That's where I am.
I don't consider myself a &quot;Trophy&quot; hunter by P&Y score standards, but I am looking for a bigger buck(which in the areas I hunt is 110+). Personally I would have probably shot that deer that James passed, but his areas are probably better, and he can afford to pass on deer of that size. I walk MY walk, though it may not be exactly the same as james or wolfen....but we do think alike.
I've passed alot of bucks in the last 5-6 years, and I'm proud to say it. They DEFINITELY won't grow if you shoot them. About the only thing I don't really agree with are the folks that state...&quot;I'd like to kill a big one, but I never see one so I just kill any buck that comes by....can't let them walk cause someone else will kill it&quot;. That is a flawed way of thinking (IMO). And for the record...I will admit that I used to think that way also. Then I realized that big bucks &quot;ARE&quot; and &quot;have always been around&quot;, I just haven't been smart enough to get one. And amazingly they still got big, even though I &quot;KNEW&quot; that when that small buck came by, it would surely be shot if I didn't do it, thus I did. Wonder why I never saw any nice bucks?????

Bottom line, we are all hunters, and have different choices and preferences. Set your own standards, hunt and be happy:)

Shortdraw, congrats to you and nice shot!

RE: If you can talk the talk....you'd better.....
 

Everyones rules of trophy is different... and I think that depends on how long you have been hunting... The longer you hunt the more you want to wait for that &quot;Wall Hanger&quot;... but passing the smaller deer will give that chance... especially if you hunt the same land year after year with the same guys with the same standards...

RE: If you can talk the talk....you'd better.....
 

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>I think the word &quot;elitist&quot; is a bad choice if you are not looking down on those who wait for big bucks. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>

Why? Wolfen looks down his nose at those who don't wait on a trophy. So is this one of those &quot;reverse descrimination&quot; things?

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>An elitist is a person who considers themselves better than others. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>

Maybe you should read a few more of wolfen's posts. That is exactly what he does. I think even he would admit that.

Protect your hunting rights, &quot;Spay or neuter a liberal.&quot;