Data,

The fact is as it has always been a slob is a slob at it has nothing to do with one's equipment choice. There are some great crossbow hunters and some SLOB trad and compound hunters. It goes both ways has has nothing to do with equipment.

Silent, I don't want to take anything away from anyone. Right now, in 47 states, the only choice is a bow for archery season. I wouldn't argue to remove crossbow hunters from archery season if the states I hunt suddenly changed their minds and made it legal for them.

It is true that slob hunters exist and hunt each fall, just as there are guys who are poor shots with bows. What I don't advocate for is if someone is not a decent shot with a bow allowing them to pick up another weapon to hunt with. I would feel the same exact way if someone came up to me and said that they don't shoot muzzleloaders well, the whole measuring powder correctly, the tamping and all that is hard to get right each time, making them erratic shots ... so shouldn't we just let them use rifles and shotguns??? I'd say HELL NO to them to.

Using that logic, dynamite, spears, poison tipped arrows, etc. should be legal equipment for those who want to use them.[:'(]

Deer seasons, game laws, and legal hunting equipment is part of the hunting process. Hunters need to adapt to whatever weapon is legal, the weapons should not be adapted for the hunter.

What do you think of me putting down my longbow last fall and shooting my Dad's Q2 ? I shot it maybe 30 times and then went hunting with it.

Opinion ?

Dynamite isn't a weapon legal in any season. Spears can be used on hogs in some places ....... its possible that a movement could get started allowing it for deer but unlikely. Poison .......... look at the POD and how it was accepted/rejected.

Not great examples Cougar, you can do better.

So you agree then that the compound should have never been legalized ? That mechanical releases should never have been legalized ? That mechanical broadheads should never have been legalized ? That greater than 65% letoff should never have been legalized ?

Problem is datamax that the "worst" offenders of this were not the shooting, but the equipment, untuned, worn out, expecting new strings to be built, arrows to be made right now. Same would happen if crossbows were included, by the way, I have also seen traditional bows come in a week before the season asking for new strings, lessons on how to string it, miss-matched arrows.

Its not the equipment, its the attitude that you would laugh at. Many of them couldn't hit the target cause the arrows/bow were not tuned, you could see it in the arrow flight.

Bob H in NH - I don't doubt it one bit (the attitude)

I work so hard on my shooting ......... and watch other guys and I'm thinking "yall are going hunting shooting like THAT ?? "

And in Arkansas, they could just realize they SUCK at shooting and choose a crossbow to improve their shooting and they don't .

You cannot dictate ethics thats for sure. The weapon doesn't indicate the character of the guy behind it either. So anyone saying crossbows would bring in "undesireables" ?? Look at the past few posts - we already got them and they use recurves/longbows and compounds [&o]

If you are trying to keep them out then you are taking something away from them. You are taking away their right to choose and you are potentially taking away their right to be in the woods with a bow.

Again you are characterising crossbow hunters as those that can't hack it anywhere else. Contrary to what you might think some people may prefer to shoot a crossbow though they are thoroughly efficient at both. Also, you're aren't taking into account women and children and the partially disabled. You can say, well if a woman wants to hunt bad enough then she'll keep practicing yadda yadda but have we really done this sport a service when we turn the would be members away because they can't pull as much weight as we can? It took my wife forever to be able to pull legal hunting weight. I can guarantee you she wouldn't have stuck with it if she hadn't been able to shoot a crossbow at first. She would have gotten bored because she hadn't had a taste of it yet. You don't miss something that you have never had so walking away wouldn't a have been a big deal. So what would the sport have benefitted from turning another advocate away? The same goes for kids and those with medical problems etc. You can say well a kid that's old enough to hunt should be able to pull legal hunting weight but that's like saying that an adult should be able to dunk a basketball. We don't have the same capabilites and we don't develep at the same levels. We are human and we're all different and you can't paint everyone with one broad stroke of the brush. There will always be those that aren't as big or as strong as others are. It's life. Should those people be punished and denied the right to hunt because they are small or frail? I don't think so. Someone else mentioned how they didn't think kids should hunt until they had done X, Y, and Z and well that's rediculous. Kids progress mentally and emotionally at different levels and it's not up to us to determine whether or not someone else's child is ready to bowhunt. It's the parent and the child's decision. Many of us including myself did start hunting at a very young age and just because you didn't or you weren't ready to at a young age doesn't mean that others may not be. Again, why do we set up rules that may keep them from ever joining our sport in the first place?

We actually cougie MaJay is the one that's said it was about the hunt not about the weapon so that's where I was coming from. However, since you brought it up crossbows shot an arrow that is identical to a compound with the exception of length. They do so with a string and cams and limbs. They have nearly identical specs in terms of speed, range, and KE. Can you say that about all of those other things that you mentioned? That's an easy argument to make. Well why don't we just allow anything....blah....blah....blah. As data says the reason is the same reason we don't have seperate season for rifle, shotgun, and pistol. Because they are all guns they're just different types of guns. If your reasoning is becasue it's a primitve weapons season then compounds don't belong in it either. Because in comparison to trad equipment there is nothing primitve about a compound.

Silent wrote-
Excellent question you just posed there, "What would the sport have benefitted?" by allowing your wife to not have to practice with a bow and become profecient with it. Instead of the sport requiring your wife to work at developing the strength, accuracy and profeciency with a bow, let's allow her to use a different and easier weapon. Silent, I'm not sure how you were introduced to hunting, but for me it was a series of steps and milestones that did not allow for my instant gratification. My father did not allow me to carry a shotgun bird hunting, until I could consistently hit clay birds at the range, I couldn't hunt deer with my own rifle until I passed my hunter safety test and spent time learning the sport at his side. If you were serious about introducing your wife to the "sport" of archery, you would have taught it to her and made it fun and embraced it's challenges. If she was not physically up to the task, she could hunt in 1 of the gun seasons, or just accompanied you afield enjoying the woods in the fall. What you are saying is that if the "sport" is to hard, make it easier.... so if your son or daughter can't hit a home run in baseball or softball, do you make the teams bring the outfield fences in? Give them a "special" bat or "special" ball? If your child wants to play on the varsity football team in front of the town each weekend but does not possess the skill to make the starting team do you "make" the coach play them? Do you create an "extra" position that is unique for them? If you wanted to bowl with the best bowling teams in your area, but could hardly keep the balls in the lane .. do they allow you to put bumpers in the gutters? You know the answer is an ABSOLUTE no .... to all of them. If you want to introduce your wife to hunting, why not choose a firearm season where her learning curve would allow for her instant gratification?
Right now .. in 47 states if your wife wants to "archery" hunt, she would need a bow. Lucky for you, you live in 1 of the 3 states she doesn't .. or she may have walked away from the sport because it asked to much.

My opinion is that you didn't give yourself near enough credit there Data ... you claim the compound is so easy to shoot .. and even that with 30 shots you can become profecient with one. What about this-
There is why you could pick up your Dad's bow, you practice. From your own words, you practice a lot. People who don't practice as much as you do shooting bows could not pick up a bow for the first time and do what you do, because you have spent time learning and developing the skills to become an archer. There may be 1 out of every 100 guys who can pick up a bow for the 1st time and shoot well .. but the other 99 guys will have to do exactly what you do .. and that is PRACTICE and LEARN.

It is not a bad thing to have a sport that expects effort on the part of it's participants. No one here can pick up a golf club and hit a hole in one every time or even par a hole, that takes effort and practice. Want to finish a marathon .. go practice and train. Want to make the company softball team ... practice hitting and fielding, don't expect them to just let you play because you "want to".

Guys.... we're ARCHERS!!! We accept that our passion requires more effort and dedication than firearms hunting .. hell , we revel in it. It makes it more challenging and more rewarding because of it! WHY WHY WHY would we want to add an even easier and different weapon into that fold??? To make more archers? NO, because we don't think of crossbow hunters as archers. To allow more people to hunt?? We have told you a hundred times we think crossbow hunters should be able to hunt with them during their own or a firearm season.. so tell them to please come and hunt!

LOOK WHERE YOU ARE POSTING... the BOWHUNTING section of this site!!! For 47 states .. that means guys like me who only use bows. What were you expecting? You could have recieved a lot of support in a crossbow section .. oh, they don't have one of those....

FOR THE LOVE OF GOD WILL WHOEVER MODERATES THIS FORUM PLEASE CLOSE THIS d%$^ THREAD. HAVE MERCY ON ALL OF US FOR THIS B-S-ING SPAT TO GO FOR 34 PAGES AND COUNTING. MY EMAIL HAS BLOWN A INCOMING MAIL FUSE WITH REPLY'S TO THIS THREAD

Isn't that exactly what compounds do ? They allow people who don't want to spend the time and effort shooting recurves to take an easier route.

3 things allowed me to do this.

The #1 thing is that compounds are easy to shoot
#2 - Dad has this bow very well tuned
#3 - I've shot compounds in the past - having that is an advantage

But still I've seen most guys pick up a compound and be hitting good groups in no time. Literally after 10 shots being ready shooting good enough to go hunting if they wanted to. Now, underhunting CONDITIONS could they ? I dunno - but thats HUNTING experience and not just plain how good a person can shoot - big difference.

Recurve and longbows hunters allowed your bow of choice in 40 years ago. Based on that quote you wish they hadn't huh ?