Talondale

To quote from the horses mouth:
From the QDM website. Does anyone have a problem with these stated goals? Just wondering if this reflects the arrogant attitude so many are accused of?

Do I detect a tinge of superiority in that last sentence? No, it couldn't be.

Blodg

atlas, I have never suggested imposing regulations on anyone, not sure where you came up with that....

It makes sense for me to pass the smaller bucks, and your term of "popping small bucks for 10 years" is not quite accurate. I started passing shots on smaller bucks in my 2nd year of hunting. But at the end of my week long hunting trip I would usually shoot the next deer to show itself on the last day and usually that ended up being a 1 1/2 or 2 1/2 year old buck. I knew this no longer made sense when I realized that I started enjoying watching these young deer more than killing them. In the last 4 years I have got a tremendous feeling of satisfaction by passing 2 1/2 year old bucks in the 120 range that I know 90% if the hunters out there would have shot. There can be a sense of enjoyment and accomplishment when letting them walk, something most meat hunters would not understand......

And no one, not one person in this thread or any other QDM thread I have read is suggesting that new hunters should be passing on young bucks in their first few years of hunting, another ludicrous statement. Everyone knows that most young hunters need some experience under their belt before they start waiting for Mr. Big. We were very fortunate that my 11 year old was able to take a mature buck in his first year of hunting, it probably won't happen the next few years.

Sylvan

I don't have a problem with the stated goals at all. Like I've said before, my problem is the obsession with antlers that is what many, possibly most, advocates are truly driven by. The rest of these goals are only broght up to defend themselves when they are called on it. No offense but this debate always seems to go the same way. It starts out with the QDM guys saying we should all start "passing the buck" so we can all kill bigger bucks and we will all be happier for it. The big assumption, as Atlas says, is that we all have the same goals. Once the advocates begin to realize that others don't put the same level importance on increasing their chances for the big one, they start to appeal with the "its for the good of the deer" argument. Well many of us just aren't buying it. I will say that there is nothing wrong with QDM in its pure form but in practice it usually winds up just being AR and worse to me its just TM. And its almost always presented with arrogance and sometimes (e.g. PA) force.

I was trying to be sarcastic by responding in kind. If it sounded arrogant I appologize but I think it might have sounded that way because I was using the words of a QDM advocate to make a point.

That is a blatantly inaccurate depiction of traditional management. In any TD state I have ever seen it is the harvest of does that is the focus of the program. When populations are low, the number of doe permits are reduced, when populations are too high, the number of doe permits are increased. This is a priciple that will be used by QDM as well. Doe harvest is the primary valve to turn in order to control numbers. TD programs are not as concerned with buck harvest simply because as long as the bulk of the harvest takes place after or late in the rut most of the doe have already been inpregnated thus insuring adequate recruitment. In practice the primary difference between TD and QDM is the resulting age structure. The rest is just smoke. QDM will increase the average age of the deer thus giving hunters more trophies to shoot at. TD offers fewer trophies and therefore as Atlas says is more challenging. TD is a proven success. Programs with antler restrictions are not and in fact some states (Mississippi) are starting to be concerned that they made a mistake by restricting the buck harvest through AR. You might find this interesting...

http://www.remington.com/NR/exeres/0...ookie%5Ftest=1

Ohio is of particular interest. They have no antler restrictions, they harvest 80 to 90% of the yearling bucks and yet are 4th in the nation for the number of trophies taken.

IL-Cornfed

Shoot whay ya want then... just don't cry about it or flock to the states that DO try to improve their quality? I personally would think that most grown men would feel embarassed to kill a yearling spike, 4 or 6 pointer??? What fun would that be after you've killed several of them..... what's the challenge at that point? [&:]

Sylvan

Now this is amazing. Grown men shouldn't shoot a "spike, 4 or 6 pointer" because it isn't manly! So now its manly to be for QDM and its manly to wait for a bigger buck. That is just about the most pahetic argument I've heard yet. This is DEER HUNTING for god's sake. It's not battle. Some of the most ignorant, toothless, scruffy scrawny little guys I have ever met have killed some monster buck. It isn't rocket science and it doesn't take a macho man.

BTW, I don't hear the guys who oppose QDM "crying about it" it seems to me that we would just prefer to be left to hunt as we please. It is the QDM,AR,PBS advocates "crying about it" and trying to coerce others to help them get more big bucks in the woods. Even as macho as they are I guess its just too tough!

IL-Cornfed

My point was actually a question? Don't you feel kind of embarassed to take a 18 month old animal to the check station??? I see some folks around here will take in a yearling buck but then they'll be bragging about the 30 years they have hunted or the 100 deer they have killed?? It just has always kind of been that a little buck like that is kind of an amature thing..... you know..... something an adult actually grows out of....... a phase????

You know one of THE most successful management programs EVER conducted is the IL Nuclear Power Plant facility at Clinton Lake. This programed has an EAB program first. Once you shoot your Doe you may hunt for a buck. This is also THE most successful BOW hunting program that has PROVEN that bowhunting can indeed be used to manage the herd correctly. They have had to deal with unbelievable overpopulation and over browse conditions. Anyway my point is this. They have NO minimum size of antlered deer that may be taken on this special draw hunt, HOWEVER through a process of actually using hunter embarassment they have had a tremendous result on mature bucks taken. They actually POST ALL photos of all the BUCKS taken on the property on a "brag board". They said the results have been amazing..... it turns out that even the "average" Joe doesn't want to take a yearling buck and have his picture taken and then displayed with dozens of mature bucks! This proves that most hunters that take immature animals are NOT proud of them! MY question is, IF you take the life of an animal that you are NOT proud of then that animal shouldn't have been wasted! If you just hunt for meat..... TAKE A DOE! WHY shoot the lil' guys..... you gentlemen aren't first timers at this game? Is there no pride?

Double Creek

In my bowhunting life there has been a natural progression to want bigger more mature deer. I started out shooting dinks, as everyone should, but as I grew older, I naturally wanted more. I began passing up immature bucks back in high school and have not regretted it, even though I have gone home without a buck. I've had about 1 chance a year at a mature deer, some years none. In those 10 years I've missed 2 mature deer, lost 1 and killed 2. Those stats suck, but that's the facts of life in a heavily hunted stated like MS. "Passing the Buck" isn't for everyone, and I would never want to legislate extreme QDM principles, but I think a happy medium would benefit all. Just b/c "YOU" want to hunt a certain way, doesn't mean all others do, you must meet in the middle IMO. And that goes for both sides

Sylvan

Absolutely not! It's a deer its not a phalic symbol. I think your post actually reveals some of what I've been talking about. Some hunters look at taking a large buck as a way to brag. A way to show their manhood. I guess it feeds the ego. I think that is exactly "something an adult actually grows out of....... a phase" . I believe the taking of a whitetail deer for the purpose of bragging is juvenile and shows a complete lack of respect for the life that was taken. Like I said there is FAR too much emphasis on killing a big rack and it is destructive to the sport.

"I have always tempered my killing with respect for the game pursued. I see the animal not only as a target but as a living creature with more freedom than I will ever have. I take that life if I can with regret as well as joy, and with the sure knowledge that nature's ways of fang and claw or exposure and starvation are a far crueler fate than I bestow."

That was Fred Bear.

As far as I'm concerned, when grown men are motivated to hunt for the primary purpose of feeding their egos they simply have a lot of growing up to do. This discussion is actually making me sad.

Talondale

I have to agree with Sylvan on this one. IL-Cornfed is showing his youth, or juvenile attitude. I'm not saying I don't prefer larger deer and feel a little more pride about a difficult kill, as it has been pointed out, larger deer don't necessarily translate into more difficult deer. Part of the appeal though is the uniqueness of a larger deer. Increasing the average age of the deer will increase the occurance of bigger deer but I think they will always be uncommon enough to be unique.

I would like to redirect this thread from focusing on the arrogance of both sides of the discussion, which I dismiss as being the result of poor debating skills, unfortunate selection of words, or underdeveloped hunting attitudes. Instead I would like to address the substance of some of the points brought up by Sylvan's earlier post concerning the effectiveness of the QDM program, as it was intended to be implimented. I am reading his referenced article and will respond to it and his other questions as soon as I am able. In the meantime, if I may, I would like to encourage other posters to try and address a reasoned discussion of the pro's and con's of implimenting a QDM program, and for the sake of this discussion let us assume that it is a VOLUNTARY implimentation on a fictitous section of land and take the discussion from there.

atlasman

If anyone should be embarrassed about anything..........it is posting something stuff like this on an open hunting forum

Wow........talk about a PERFECT example of the attitude that is the problem...........not the message.