Gary Alt (A Man With the "Right" Plan)
09-12-2002, 03:23 AM
#21
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: DENHAM SPRINGS LOUISIANA USA
Posts: 18
RE: Gary Alt (A Man With the "Right" Plan)
I hunt in Mississippi and every day that deer season is open, it is legal to shoot a doe. Mississippi law for bucks is 4 points but almost all clubs are 6 or 8 point. It is frowned upon to bring in a small buck especially if it is not your first kill of the season. The mind set is that if you are not going to mount it that it is no better than shooting a doe and we have so many does that it is not hard to kill a deer. This along with the fact that the small bucks are not very bright and are normally seen several times a year helps you to have patience. As long as everyone is seeing deer it seems to work out ok. Not all areas of Mississippi are like this and I don’t think it would work in an area with small herds.
09-12-2002, 05:57 AM
#22
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location:
Posts: 2,413
RE: Gary Alt (A Man With the "Right" Plan)
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>As for bigger racks why does everyone have a antler fetish?<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
Nothing wrong with that, is there?
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>What gives some people the right to tell me or anyone else what they should shoot?<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
This is perfectly normal. Laws have dictated what we can or can not do for a long time. We are told what we can shoot, where we can shoot it, what we can use to shoot it with, how many we can shoot, when we can shoot and how much it will cost us to shoot it, etc. You should be getting used to this by now.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>If a person is happy shooting spikes and small bucks so what? <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
There are many who believe these baby bucks should be allowed to grow up a bit. Unfortunately, the new PA rules still won't protect many of the 1.5 yr deer. If everyone let these walk for just one year, then each year after, the woods would be filled with 2.5 year bucks that would give more meat to the "meat hunters" and would provide a bit more excitement to those who enjoy larger antlers. If you don't prefer the larger antlers, you can always pass on the bigger ones and look for a smaller racked 2.5 year deer which will still give you more meat.
Nothing wrong with that, is there?
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>What gives some people the right to tell me or anyone else what they should shoot?<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
This is perfectly normal. Laws have dictated what we can or can not do for a long time. We are told what we can shoot, where we can shoot it, what we can use to shoot it with, how many we can shoot, when we can shoot and how much it will cost us to shoot it, etc. You should be getting used to this by now.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>If a person is happy shooting spikes and small bucks so what? <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
There are many who believe these baby bucks should be allowed to grow up a bit. Unfortunately, the new PA rules still won't protect many of the 1.5 yr deer. If everyone let these walk for just one year, then each year after, the woods would be filled with 2.5 year bucks that would give more meat to the "meat hunters" and would provide a bit more excitement to those who enjoy larger antlers. If you don't prefer the larger antlers, you can always pass on the bigger ones and look for a smaller racked 2.5 year deer which will still give you more meat.
09-12-2002, 06:20 AM
#23
Spike
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Williamsport PA. USA
Posts: 91
RE: Gary Alt (A Man With the "Right" Plan)
Straightarrow I have to follow what the game commission tells me but what ticks me off is people who are not connected with the game commission telling what I should or should not shoot.Not every hunter is so concerned about killing a book buck.There are many hunters here who due to work or other things beyond their control who can only get out a couple times a year. They are happy with any buck that they get.If a person wants to pass on smaller deer thats their choice but like I said dont put down the person who doesnt.Looking down thw road aways when doe tags will be hard to get and they will if Alt has his way then what? How many older hunters will we lose because they cant get a doe tag or see a legalbuck? These are a few of my concerns.PAs deer management may or may not work only time will tell but for right now I dont like it.One other thing that worries me is all the fighting going on about this we need more hunters not less and this doesnt help much.
09-12-2002, 06:38 AM
#24
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Hamilton Square NJ USA
Posts: 557
RE: Gary Alt (A Man With the "Right" Plan)
I stopped hunting PA a couple of yeears ago due to the million:1 buck to doe ratio, seeing 35 does opening day, and two spikes was kind of boring, and all the deer were skinny.
Some PA hunters believe PA is this magical place where all management principals go out the window, and no other states can be compared. Wrong. These same things were done elsewhere, with everybody winding up thrilled with the results. The western states who first started antler restrictions on mule deer and elk found a small percentage of the yearlings were shot illegally the first year, then it dropped each year to become insignificant. They also found the buck kill was down the first year, then rebounded to record highs as the ratio was fixed, and "hunters" had to stop driving deer and shooting everything with white on it's head. Some even had to buy binoculars!
Give it time fellas, it's the best idea in years, and the management units will come, it's unrealistic to expect everything done at once, and even more eunrealistic to expect a management unit for every block of land. NJ has 60 something units, and we still have the same problem wth high numbers on private land. Nothing Alt or anyone can do about that, a private property owner has rights, and if he doesn't want people to hunt it, that's his right. Nothing's perfect.
"In heaven, even the fish have antlers"
Some PA hunters believe PA is this magical place where all management principals go out the window, and no other states can be compared. Wrong. These same things were done elsewhere, with everybody winding up thrilled with the results. The western states who first started antler restrictions on mule deer and elk found a small percentage of the yearlings were shot illegally the first year, then it dropped each year to become insignificant. They also found the buck kill was down the first year, then rebounded to record highs as the ratio was fixed, and "hunters" had to stop driving deer and shooting everything with white on it's head. Some even had to buy binoculars!
Give it time fellas, it's the best idea in years, and the management units will come, it's unrealistic to expect everything done at once, and even more eunrealistic to expect a management unit for every block of land. NJ has 60 something units, and we still have the same problem wth high numbers on private land. Nothing Alt or anyone can do about that, a private property owner has rights, and if he doesn't want people to hunt it, that's his right. Nothing's perfect.
"In heaven, even the fish have antlers"
09-12-2002, 06:47 AM
#25
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Phoenixville, PA USA
Posts: 5,541
RE: Gary Alt (A Man With the "Right" Plan)
Cardeer, PaBowhunter, Rob, Dale and other PA hunters, I understand what you are saying and would venture to guess that most if not all of the guys that post here do not fit into the category of hunters that do not feel they are accountable for their actions. The deer densities in PA are definitely messed up and severely so in south east PA due to the large amount of private land that is posted. It all comes back to the hunters though. We are the reason the land is posted.
You have said the game lands in your area hold a low deer density and a high hunter density and the private land is unavailable. That's because the hunters shoot anything that is brown and nothing gets old enough to learn how to avoid hunters. Also someone blasts away on a running deer that was pushed by on a drive and wounds it then goes trapsing on some private landowners property without asking. Next thing you know they kick up the deer and start blasting away again and the land owner hears shots outside their window. What happens? Next year there is a posted sign on that property.
I have hunted in PA all my life and been fortunate enough to hunt in some other states as well. In comparison to other states, hunters here (not all but many) are a joke. We have one of the highest if not the highest number of hunters in the nation and a vast majority of those care nothing about wildlife conservation, QDM (which includes herd health not just big racks), respecting others' property, and many times game laws. There are too many hunters and not an efficient way to manage them.
I know there are some things that need to be ironed out with this new program and as time goes on things will change (for the better hopefully). As things stand right now, the deer densities you complain about are a result of the old regulations, so it obvious that some changes need to be made. IMHO PA needs to manage its hunters more than it needs to manage its deer.<img src=icon_smile_sad.gif border=0 align=middle>
Edited by - huntingbry on 09/12/2002 08:08:57
You have said the game lands in your area hold a low deer density and a high hunter density and the private land is unavailable. That's because the hunters shoot anything that is brown and nothing gets old enough to learn how to avoid hunters. Also someone blasts away on a running deer that was pushed by on a drive and wounds it then goes trapsing on some private landowners property without asking. Next thing you know they kick up the deer and start blasting away again and the land owner hears shots outside their window. What happens? Next year there is a posted sign on that property.
I have hunted in PA all my life and been fortunate enough to hunt in some other states as well. In comparison to other states, hunters here (not all but many) are a joke. We have one of the highest if not the highest number of hunters in the nation and a vast majority of those care nothing about wildlife conservation, QDM (which includes herd health not just big racks), respecting others' property, and many times game laws. There are too many hunters and not an efficient way to manage them.
I know there are some things that need to be ironed out with this new program and as time goes on things will change (for the better hopefully). As things stand right now, the deer densities you complain about are a result of the old regulations, so it obvious that some changes need to be made. IMHO PA needs to manage its hunters more than it needs to manage its deer.<img src=icon_smile_sad.gif border=0 align=middle>
Edited by - huntingbry on 09/12/2002 08:08:57
09-12-2002, 06:51 AM
#26
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location:
Posts: 15,452
RE: Gary Alt (A Man With the "Right" Plan)
6ptsika ,How about Iowa? hunted there for years would see 40 to 50 deer a day and still lots of 140 plus bucks.I still say you cant manage a deer herd on a state wide program or give doe tags out in areas that the land is closed.Plus the deer Doctor Alt Hunts on a private club ,I would like to at least see him hunt on the public land he claims to love.
09-12-2002, 08:04 AM
#27
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Lehigh County PA USA
Posts: 12,157
RE: Gary Alt (A Man With the "Right" Plan)
Huntingbry,
I agree with what you posted in your last post...to the letter. There are slob hunters out there, more so in PA I wager, and they do ruin it for the rest of us.
As I stated, it is a two way street. We, as hunters, need to be more responsible and ethical while land owners need to have more trust in those of us that they can.
I agree with what you posted in your last post...to the letter. There are slob hunters out there, more so in PA I wager, and they do ruin it for the rest of us.
As I stated, it is a two way street. We, as hunters, need to be more responsible and ethical while land owners need to have more trust in those of us that they can.
09-12-2002, 10:00 AM
#28
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Hamilton Square NJ USA
Posts: 557
RE: Gary Alt (A Man With the "Right" Plan)
Cardeer, I still think the same management programs would work anywhere, I think the difference between Iowa and PA has more to do with hunters, them fellas ain't shooting spikes out there, no need to regulate them into doing what they're already doing.
If you want to go to a lottery, preference points, applying for a specific county or unit, all that mess, you could do the same thing with PA's herd. BTW, Iowa started putting more world class deer into the record book when they started reducing the herd, I don't think you'll see much public land out there with 35-40 deer sighted in a day. If you were hunting with an outfitter, well, there's private propeerty in PA where there's tons off deer, some posters here claim there's plenty of 150+ class deer. <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>
This ain't communism, Alt can hunt wherever he can afford, I don't see where it effects his job. George Bush makes the decisions on social security, but I have a feeling he ain't gonna be needing it to live on. <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>.
"In heaven, even the fish have antlers"
If you want to go to a lottery, preference points, applying for a specific county or unit, all that mess, you could do the same thing with PA's herd. BTW, Iowa started putting more world class deer into the record book when they started reducing the herd, I don't think you'll see much public land out there with 35-40 deer sighted in a day. If you were hunting with an outfitter, well, there's private propeerty in PA where there's tons off deer, some posters here claim there's plenty of 150+ class deer. <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>
This ain't communism, Alt can hunt wherever he can afford, I don't see where it effects his job. George Bush makes the decisions on social security, but I have a feeling he ain't gonna be needing it to live on. <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>.
"In heaven, even the fish have antlers"
09-12-2002, 10:24 AM
#29
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Phoenixville, PA USA
Posts: 5,541
RE: Gary Alt (A Man With the "Right" Plan)
Frank, I would love to see landowners give some of the good guys a chance at redemption. This is kind of where hunting clubs or groups can come in. If you approach a land owner and are a member or official in a club, you can show the land owner your process for taking in members, the exact number of people that would be hunting the property, and the clubs guidelines along with any special requirements the landowner would like hunters to adhere to. This can help open some doors. Unfortunately, I have not found a club like that in my area.
I truly believe that if given the opportunity, hunters could turn a lot of land owners around.
I truly believe that if given the opportunity, hunters could turn a lot of land owners around.
09-12-2002, 12:18 PM
#30
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Sweet Valley Pa. USA
Posts: 532
RE: Gary Alt (A Man With the "Right" Plan)
I have been hunting in Pa. for 22 years now and I feel that ALT has some really good ideas. I wouldn't even mind if they cut out buck season for one year and then start antler restrictions next year. Believe me, it would really kill me not to hunt buck this year but I would do it just so we would have a better buck to doe ratio and bigger racked bucks in the future. I think that we should all just wait for two years and see where we stand then. I think people will be happy seeing more big racked bucks and then will be glad to pass on the small bucks. Remember DOE TASTE GREAT TOO!!!!!!!