"As Long as It's Legal"....Gimme a Break
09-06-2002, 10:30 AM
#1
Typical Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: QDM Heaven
Posts: 847
"As Long as It's Legal"....Gimme a Break
When debating various topics here such as; Baiting vs. Not Baiting, Bowhunting vs. Gun Hunting, QDM vs. Anti-QDM, and so on and so forth, I constantly read replies stating, "as long as it's legal." What's up with that? Since when did people become so passive soas to just leave it all up to the Government as to what form or shape their hunting world takes. It's a shame that hunters can't be disciplined and educated enough to understand all of the aspects and the huge amount of responsibility involved with deer hunting without having to pass gobs of legislation to MAKE them understand. If you shoot all of the 6 month and 1.5 year old bucks you will never see a large buck out of your treestand unless you have a portable TV and are watching TNN Outdoors from your stand. Nevertheless, the only way the situation can be improved is by passing laws to make it illegal to shoot immature bucks as is being done in many states.
High-powered rifles are legal in some states but are involved in more incidents of poaching as well as hunting accidents and fatalities than any other hunting weapon, not to mention the lack of challenge that they present. So what has to happen...many states have gone to muzzleloader or shotgun only and have had to make high-powered rifles "illegal" to hunt with.
CWD is spreading rampant throughout the country and it has been proven that throwing out bait piles to feed the deer concentrates too many into one area accelerating the spread of CWD as well as many other diseases. So finally, states must pass legislation to make it "illegal" to bait deer. But what is amusing to me is that Joe Hunter is in a state where baiting is still legal although he is surrounded by states where CWD is spreading and baiting has become "illegal" but since he has no mind or sense of his own, continues to bait because he lives by the philosophy of, "as long as it's legal."
High-powered rifles are legal in some states but are involved in more incidents of poaching as well as hunting accidents and fatalities than any other hunting weapon, not to mention the lack of challenge that they present. So what has to happen...many states have gone to muzzleloader or shotgun only and have had to make high-powered rifles "illegal" to hunt with.
CWD is spreading rampant throughout the country and it has been proven that throwing out bait piles to feed the deer concentrates too many into one area accelerating the spread of CWD as well as many other diseases. So finally, states must pass legislation to make it "illegal" to bait deer. But what is amusing to me is that Joe Hunter is in a state where baiting is still legal although he is surrounded by states where CWD is spreading and baiting has become "illegal" but since he has no mind or sense of his own, continues to bait because he lives by the philosophy of, "as long as it's legal."
09-06-2002, 10:48 AM
#2
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ridgeland MS USA
Posts: 850
RE: "As Long as It's Legal"....Gimme a Break
I agree with Wolfen68 on some of his points.
You also need morals, ethics, and just plain good common sense. Just because something is "legal" doen't necessarily mean it should be done.
Hunt the thickets
You also need morals, ethics, and just plain good common sense. Just because something is "legal" doen't necessarily mean it should be done.
Hunt the thickets
09-06-2002, 10:53 AM
#3
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Warren PA USA
Posts: 1,512
RE: "As Long as It's Legal"....Gimme a Break
Good points -- Bad points!
It is up to the individual to decide what they take within the limits of the law. Not all state game agencies let everyone know what they are doing. Some people have no idea that poaching is as big a problem as it is. If not directly involved with something it is often easy to have little knowledge of it.
Outlawing rifles because they are the weapon of choice for poachers is ludicrous! You should be ashamed to even think that. That's the same as outlawing handguns because people commit crimes with them. Besides, if it's illegal to poach and that isn't stopping poachers...what is making the rifle they use illegal going to do?
Baiting causing CWD. I agree with you on that one. It should be stopped...and the individuals who are baiting in an area that has CWD should have enough common sense not to. BUT, going back to my first statement....if they aren't aware of the problem because it isn't common knowledge....CWD is a relatively new disease and only recently has it been found in epidemic proportions. It's not possible to change something one night and have the rest of the world comply perfectly the next morning.
It is up to the individual to decide what they take within the limits of the law. Not all state game agencies let everyone know what they are doing. Some people have no idea that poaching is as big a problem as it is. If not directly involved with something it is often easy to have little knowledge of it.
Outlawing rifles because they are the weapon of choice for poachers is ludicrous! You should be ashamed to even think that. That's the same as outlawing handguns because people commit crimes with them. Besides, if it's illegal to poach and that isn't stopping poachers...what is making the rifle they use illegal going to do?
Baiting causing CWD. I agree with you on that one. It should be stopped...and the individuals who are baiting in an area that has CWD should have enough common sense not to. BUT, going back to my first statement....if they aren't aware of the problem because it isn't common knowledge....CWD is a relatively new disease and only recently has it been found in epidemic proportions. It's not possible to change something one night and have the rest of the world comply perfectly the next morning.
09-06-2002, 11:02 AM
#4
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: East Yapank NY USA
Posts: 3,457
RE: "As Long as It's Legal"....Gimme a Break
I also do not buy the "if its legal, its o.k" line.
Because if thats the case don't bash me if I claim I lost a deer taking a 80 yd shot with my 40 lb bow and 2-1/2" expandables - because it is legal
Because if thats the case don't bash me if I claim I lost a deer taking a 80 yd shot with my 40 lb bow and 2-1/2" expandables - because it is legal
09-06-2002, 11:26 AM
#5
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Spring Grove, Pa. USA
Posts: 2,120
RE: "As Long as It's Legal"....Gimme a Break
The law is the law.If the law says you can shoot a deer over a pile of corn or apples,then there is nothing illegal about it(although I'm against baiting).Taking an 80yd shot with a 40# bow,although legal because there is no law saying you can't,would be stupid.Personally,I believe most of us stay within the confines of the game laws and have our own personal code of ethics and common sense to be able to differentiate what is right and wrong for each of us.
09-06-2002, 11:50 AM
#6
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Lehigh County PA USA
Posts: 12,157
RE: "As Long as It's Legal"....Gimme a Break
Well, I gotta admit that most of the time I want to just out and out delete everything woflen68 posts on this forum but this one time I agree with the general intent of this post if not necessarily the specific examples.
As Jason N stated it is up to the individual what they take within the limits of the law.
On the other hand I can't see how we can compare someone who shoots "small bucks" with someone who helps in spreading CWD.
Just my two cents.
As Jason N stated it is up to the individual what they take within the limits of the law.
On the other hand I can't see how we can compare someone who shoots "small bucks" with someone who helps in spreading CWD.
Just my two cents.
09-06-2002, 12:01 PM
#7
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Phoenixville, PA USA
Posts: 5,541
RE: "As Long as It's Legal"....Gimme a Break
Wolfen, I agree with you on some of the points you make. I like the fact that states are starting to be proactive in enacting laws that require a buck be a certain size for you to shoot it. I pass on smaller bucks and shoot a lot of does, because I believe QDM is a useful tool in helping herd health and promoting bigger healthier bucks.
You have to take into consideration that most of these guys that are shooting the 1.5 year old bucks are doing so because they are not like you and I. They may hunt 3 days the entire season. PA, where I live and hunt, has one of the highest populations of deer hunters in the entire country. However, the vast majority of those hunters will only go out 1 day a year. That guy is likely going to shoot whatever he sees. I can't condemn him for it because he payed the same amount of money for his license as I did even though I get more for my money.
If I tell him he is wrong for shooting a small buck, he may quit hunting. If he quits hunting, maybe his buddy will quit and so on. Then there is less money being raised by the state from sportsmen for wildlife conservation. Next thing you know we all have to pay more money to hunt so the state can justify it. Then more people quit because they can't afford it. Then hunting becomes a big money pay-to-play sport.
This may seem drastic, but it's not that far off. We need to stick together and not alienate other hunters because their way of thinking is not exactly like ours. If we try to push our standards on another hunter, then we are no better than the antis. Think about it. That is what they are doing to us. They want us to live by their standards because they don't like what we do. Just like you don't like the guy shooting a 1.5 year old buck over a bait pile with his high powered rifle.
Edited by - huntingbry on 09/06/2002 13:09:01
You have to take into consideration that most of these guys that are shooting the 1.5 year old bucks are doing so because they are not like you and I. They may hunt 3 days the entire season. PA, where I live and hunt, has one of the highest populations of deer hunters in the entire country. However, the vast majority of those hunters will only go out 1 day a year. That guy is likely going to shoot whatever he sees. I can't condemn him for it because he payed the same amount of money for his license as I did even though I get more for my money.
If I tell him he is wrong for shooting a small buck, he may quit hunting. If he quits hunting, maybe his buddy will quit and so on. Then there is less money being raised by the state from sportsmen for wildlife conservation. Next thing you know we all have to pay more money to hunt so the state can justify it. Then more people quit because they can't afford it. Then hunting becomes a big money pay-to-play sport.
This may seem drastic, but it's not that far off. We need to stick together and not alienate other hunters because their way of thinking is not exactly like ours. If we try to push our standards on another hunter, then we are no better than the antis. Think about it. That is what they are doing to us. They want us to live by their standards because they don't like what we do. Just like you don't like the guy shooting a 1.5 year old buck over a bait pile with his high powered rifle.
Edited by - huntingbry on 09/06/2002 13:09:01
09-06-2002, 12:04 PM
#8
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Fredericksburg Virginia USA
Posts: 13,672
RE: "As Long as It's Legal"....Gimme a Break
wolfen what is good in Kansas is not good everywhere, how many deer do you have per square mile, the counties I hunt in have 40 or more deer per square mile. Baiting is illegal in Va., but due to the overpopulation of deer there is talk of making it legal due to the fact that there is no CWD in Va. or any neighboring state and the importation of any deer or elk into the state is illegal to prevent this. Would I bait? No, but that is my choice. We have plenty of nice bucks here in Va., there is no reason to force QDM on hunters in Va. If you are into QDM you should know that with overpopulation comes smaller deer with smaller racks. If there was a shortage of deer and of nice bucks I would be behind you 100%, but in Va. there are tons of bucks, the number of bucks killed versus the number of bucks surviving is miniscule.
Rifles are legal in most states, in Va. there are only a few counties that have made rifles illegal and the reason behind it is population(human)density, not because it is the weapon of choice of poachers, accidents, nor fatalities. The main cause of the less than six hunting deaths in Va. had nothing to do with the weapon, it was falling out of tree stands! In the counties where rifles were made illegal they made it shotgun only. In regards to black powder, this has nothing to do with eleminating rifles, it is a way of allowing the use of primitive weapons. In Va. bow season starts first, during the last 2 weeks of bow season blackpowder is legal, then after that ends rifle/shotgun season opens depending on what county you live in.
I totally concur that baiting should be illegalized in any state or state bordering a CWD infected area.
I will tell you an observation of mine over the 35+ years I have hunted even in counties where dog hunting is legal, 90% of the BIG bucks I have seen, I have seen during bow season. The BIG boys dissappear for the most part during gun season, they go nocturnal. Many times during gun down home I would see huge bucks at night feeding in the very areas I knew they had run dogs through that day.
wolfen the world is not Kansas, things are different in other states and as a result there are different regs. BTW in Va. there are public hearing every year where the VDGIF, state wildlife biologist and outdoorsmen discuss changes in regulations, in Va. hunting/fishing regs are not set without input by the public, that is one reason why bow hunters get thier season during the rut, black powder gets their season during the tail end of the rut, and gun hunters get the remainder. The state wants to cull the herd down tremendously and if it was totally up to them gun season would begin during the rut.
Actually the two weapons of choice for poachers here are crossbows and 22's.
What would you suggest for regs in a state with a very large over population deer. Would you reccomend outlawing all gun hunting and strictly allow bow only and only bucks of 8 points or better?
The Tazman aka Martin Price
Founder and President of
Virginia Disabled Outdoorsmen Club
Rifles are legal in most states, in Va. there are only a few counties that have made rifles illegal and the reason behind it is population(human)density, not because it is the weapon of choice of poachers, accidents, nor fatalities. The main cause of the less than six hunting deaths in Va. had nothing to do with the weapon, it was falling out of tree stands! In the counties where rifles were made illegal they made it shotgun only. In regards to black powder, this has nothing to do with eleminating rifles, it is a way of allowing the use of primitive weapons. In Va. bow season starts first, during the last 2 weeks of bow season blackpowder is legal, then after that ends rifle/shotgun season opens depending on what county you live in.
I totally concur that baiting should be illegalized in any state or state bordering a CWD infected area.
I will tell you an observation of mine over the 35+ years I have hunted even in counties where dog hunting is legal, 90% of the BIG bucks I have seen, I have seen during bow season. The BIG boys dissappear for the most part during gun season, they go nocturnal. Many times during gun down home I would see huge bucks at night feeding in the very areas I knew they had run dogs through that day.
wolfen the world is not Kansas, things are different in other states and as a result there are different regs. BTW in Va. there are public hearing every year where the VDGIF, state wildlife biologist and outdoorsmen discuss changes in regulations, in Va. hunting/fishing regs are not set without input by the public, that is one reason why bow hunters get thier season during the rut, black powder gets their season during the tail end of the rut, and gun hunters get the remainder. The state wants to cull the herd down tremendously and if it was totally up to them gun season would begin during the rut.
Actually the two weapons of choice for poachers here are crossbows and 22's.
What would you suggest for regs in a state with a very large over population deer. Would you reccomend outlawing all gun hunting and strictly allow bow only and only bucks of 8 points or better?
The Tazman aka Martin Price
Founder and President of
Virginia Disabled Outdoorsmen Club
09-06-2002, 12:11 PM
#9
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Memphis TN USA
Posts: 3,445
RE: "As Long as It's Legal"....Gimme a Break
Yea Yea Yea blah blah blah We know. You have told us 100 times. This is the only thing you ever post about. We all know your opinion. We know we are all supposed to think just like you (the exhalted one) and we're all loosers if we don't. Don't you have any new material?<img src=icon_smile_sad.gif border=0 align=middle>
Protect your hunting rights, "Spay or neuter a liberal."
Edited by - silentassassin on 09/06/2002 13:14:04
Protect your hunting rights, "Spay or neuter a liberal."
Edited by - silentassassin on 09/06/2002 13:14:04
09-06-2002, 12:24 PM
#10
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Heaven IA USA
Posts: 2,597
RE: "As Long as It's Legal"....Gimme a Break
While I agree in principle with some of what you are saying, parts of your diatribe are misinformed.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>High-powered rifles are legal in some states but are involved in more incidents of poaching as well as hunting accidents and fatalities than any other hunting weapon, not to mention the lack of challenge that they present. So what has to happen...many states have gone to muzzleloader or shotgun only and have had to make high-powered rifles "illegal" to hunt with. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
The use of rifles, muzzleloaders, and shotguns has nothing to do with poaching in a states decision to prescribe certain firearms. Goodness knows if someone is going to poach no law would change that. The weapons allowed are usually based on the safety issues.
Take the State of Michigan for example. They annually have approximately 700,000 deer hunters during the gun season. In the southern part of the state where the population is more dense only shotguns (and Muzzleloaders) can be used. In the Northern part of the state where the population is more sparse, one can use a rifle.
In States like Iowa it is shotgun (muzzle loader)only. The first gun season started in 1953. Again shotguns were the only modern firearm allowed due to safety reasons. The shotgun was viewed as a short range weapon.
I would agree with more education and less legislation. It takes time but in the long run I think all of us would be further ahead.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>High-powered rifles are legal in some states but are involved in more incidents of poaching as well as hunting accidents and fatalities than any other hunting weapon, not to mention the lack of challenge that they present. So what has to happen...many states have gone to muzzleloader or shotgun only and have had to make high-powered rifles "illegal" to hunt with. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
The use of rifles, muzzleloaders, and shotguns has nothing to do with poaching in a states decision to prescribe certain firearms. Goodness knows if someone is going to poach no law would change that. The weapons allowed are usually based on the safety issues.
Take the State of Michigan for example. They annually have approximately 700,000 deer hunters during the gun season. In the southern part of the state where the population is more dense only shotguns (and Muzzleloaders) can be used. In the Northern part of the state where the population is more sparse, one can use a rifle.
In States like Iowa it is shotgun (muzzle loader)only. The first gun season started in 1953. Again shotguns were the only modern firearm allowed due to safety reasons. The shotgun was viewed as a short range weapon.
I would agree with more education and less legislation. It takes time but in the long run I think all of us would be further ahead.