"As Long as It's Legal"....Gimme a Break
09-06-2002, 04:44 PM
#21
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 3,903
RE: "As Long as It's Legal"....Gimme a Break
I've always understood your point , just dont agree with all of your points.<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>
I think you already know where I stand on this issue , but in case you forgot<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
Yes , I let the young bucks walk because I have a burning desire to bag that majestic trophy , but if my neighbor decides to take that young buck and he's happy with it , good for him.
Wolfen68 , could you please post a link verifying that it has been proven that baiting will spread CWD? There are alot of Wi folks who would like to see the proof.
This is going a little off topic , but I have a theory of which direction our deer herd is headed.
I dont know about all states , but here in Wi , say at least 20 - 30 years ago , a hunter could go the whole season without the opportunity to harvest a deer. There wasn't any where near the deer herd we now have , and heres my theory. Back then you could only harvest a legal buck , or a doe if you had a doe tag. Back then getting a doe tag was like winning the lottery. Well , this practice originated from our DNR , in hopes of growing the deer herd and was in place for many many years. It worked in growing the deer herd for obvious reasons , and now deer are over populated , so what do we do? Well , the last 10 years or so , we have been doing the opposite of what we did to grow the deer herd. Now , there are alot of people who choose not to shoot does , but instead would take a small buck over a doe. If the DNR created a antler restriction , this would no doubt increase the doe harvest by a huge number. The point I'm trying to make is , it appears that everything is going to go full circle. In ten years or so , we'll be back to wishing we could see a deer during hunting season.<img src=icon_smile_dissapprove.gif border=0 align=middle>
I think you already know where I stand on this issue , but in case you forgot<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
Yes , I let the young bucks walk because I have a burning desire to bag that majestic trophy , but if my neighbor decides to take that young buck and he's happy with it , good for him.
Wolfen68 , could you please post a link verifying that it has been proven that baiting will spread CWD? There are alot of Wi folks who would like to see the proof.
This is going a little off topic , but I have a theory of which direction our deer herd is headed.
I dont know about all states , but here in Wi , say at least 20 - 30 years ago , a hunter could go the whole season without the opportunity to harvest a deer. There wasn't any where near the deer herd we now have , and heres my theory. Back then you could only harvest a legal buck , or a doe if you had a doe tag. Back then getting a doe tag was like winning the lottery. Well , this practice originated from our DNR , in hopes of growing the deer herd and was in place for many many years. It worked in growing the deer herd for obvious reasons , and now deer are over populated , so what do we do? Well , the last 10 years or so , we have been doing the opposite of what we did to grow the deer herd. Now , there are alot of people who choose not to shoot does , but instead would take a small buck over a doe. If the DNR created a antler restriction , this would no doubt increase the doe harvest by a huge number. The point I'm trying to make is , it appears that everything is going to go full circle. In ten years or so , we'll be back to wishing we could see a deer during hunting season.<img src=icon_smile_dissapprove.gif border=0 align=middle>
09-06-2002, 04:47 PM
#22
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Labadie Missouri USA
Posts: 120
RE: "As Long as It's Legal"....Gimme a Break
The goal of most states is to control the population of the deer herd not to ensure there are an abundance of P&Y deer running around. That responsibility is up to the trophy hunters.
If a person wants to shoot the first deer they see then so be it. That is there right under the LAW. It may not always be ethical or moral but, you can not regulate ethics or morality. People have tried and it has gone down in flames.
As far as the rifle thing. That is the same as trying to outlaw cars because of drunk driving. People are not getting at the root of the problem.
CWD is a problem that presents many new challenges and poses many more questions. I think hunters need to really think about what they can do to control this disease. If that means stop baiting (Legal or illegal ) then they should do it if they want to keep hunting deer.
If a person wants to shoot the first deer they see then so be it. That is there right under the LAW. It may not always be ethical or moral but, you can not regulate ethics or morality. People have tried and it has gone down in flames.
As far as the rifle thing. That is the same as trying to outlaw cars because of drunk driving. People are not getting at the root of the problem.
CWD is a problem that presents many new challenges and poses many more questions. I think hunters need to really think about what they can do to control this disease. If that means stop baiting (Legal or illegal ) then they should do it if they want to keep hunting deer.
09-06-2002, 05:56 PM
#23
Fork Horn
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location:
Posts: 159
RE: "As Long as It's Legal"....Gimme a Break
Well, as long as it's legal.......
I figure a lot of that is just away to stay out of an arguement they don't want to be involved in. Rather than say, we <BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Since when did people become so passive soas to just leave it all up to the Government as to what form or shape their hunting world takes <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote> They use the "as long as it's legal" to avoid having to roll over and agree with people who don't like the rules as written. In other words... they're saying "it's none of your business how I hunt and I'm not going to agree with you so get off it". Some points you made had some value and I agree with them... but ... HEY, AS LONG AS IT'S LEGAL.......
I figure a lot of that is just away to stay out of an arguement they don't want to be involved in. Rather than say, we <BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Since when did people become so passive soas to just leave it all up to the Government as to what form or shape their hunting world takes <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote> They use the "as long as it's legal" to avoid having to roll over and agree with people who don't like the rules as written. In other words... they're saying "it's none of your business how I hunt and I'm not going to agree with you so get off it". Some points you made had some value and I agree with them... but ... HEY, AS LONG AS IT'S LEGAL.......
09-06-2002, 07:09 PM
#24
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: NY
Posts: 4,668
RE: "As Long as It's Legal"....Gimme a Break
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>the privelege of hunting.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
Hunting is a RIGHT......not a privilege.
Hunting is a RIGHT......not a privilege.
09-06-2002, 07:22 PM
#25
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: cazenovia, NY USA
Posts: 2,973
RE: "As Long as It's Legal"....Gimme a Break
I read your post, and all the responses, while I understand the point, you are trying to make, I do not agree with your reasoning..
You might have made a better point to say that "if you do not agree with someone else's law, do not be ashamed to speak up about it. We do not live in a static world, other peoples opinions matter, and debate is healthy. As a result of this interaction, new and often better laws or sets of standards are acheived."
It is your examples that ruin your point:
For example I could say: "its a shame that motorists cannot become educated enough to drive in a sane and respectful manner, without having to pass gobs of legislation to MAKE them drive safely". Sure its a shame, but can you imagine what it COULD be like if we did not??? Why should hunting be any different?
I think cardeer said it best - we are the government, we make the laws. Since people are different in different areas, they pass laws that are understandably different as well. Each area has its own set of standards that change as we change.
As far as outlawing rifles due to poaching???? Really show me one example, say nothing of the "many states going to shotgun or muzzeloader" for this reason, I cannot find one.
As with CWD - Its not like legislation had never been proposed to ban baiting before, CWD is what has tipped the scales against baiting in some areas. Mostly as a result of public and scientific inistance, not because there are a couple of "supreme lawmakers" that willy nilly legislate laws that we must live with. In areas where CWD is not an issue, its a much harder sell. In NY in the last century, it was legal and common to herd deer to lakes to take them in waiting boats with a knife and rope, also to jacklight deer at night (read Leatherstocking tales) - I could go on and on, but in all cases, public perception, and our legislative system is what drives change. Thats Democracy.
Until the local populations want a different law, its not going to happen. That does not mean that we in different areas, with a different set of laws, cannot have and voice our opinions. In fact it is healthy that we do.
Edited by - farm hunter on 09/06/2002 20:24:19
You might have made a better point to say that "if you do not agree with someone else's law, do not be ashamed to speak up about it. We do not live in a static world, other peoples opinions matter, and debate is healthy. As a result of this interaction, new and often better laws or sets of standards are acheived."
It is your examples that ruin your point:
For example I could say: "its a shame that motorists cannot become educated enough to drive in a sane and respectful manner, without having to pass gobs of legislation to MAKE them drive safely". Sure its a shame, but can you imagine what it COULD be like if we did not??? Why should hunting be any different?
I think cardeer said it best - we are the government, we make the laws. Since people are different in different areas, they pass laws that are understandably different as well. Each area has its own set of standards that change as we change.
As far as outlawing rifles due to poaching???? Really show me one example, say nothing of the "many states going to shotgun or muzzeloader" for this reason, I cannot find one.
As with CWD - Its not like legislation had never been proposed to ban baiting before, CWD is what has tipped the scales against baiting in some areas. Mostly as a result of public and scientific inistance, not because there are a couple of "supreme lawmakers" that willy nilly legislate laws that we must live with. In areas where CWD is not an issue, its a much harder sell. In NY in the last century, it was legal and common to herd deer to lakes to take them in waiting boats with a knife and rope, also to jacklight deer at night (read Leatherstocking tales) - I could go on and on, but in all cases, public perception, and our legislative system is what drives change. Thats Democracy.
Until the local populations want a different law, its not going to happen. That does not mean that we in different areas, with a different set of laws, cannot have and voice our opinions. In fact it is healthy that we do.
Edited by - farm hunter on 09/06/2002 20:24:19
09-07-2002, 12:06 AM
#26
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Sheboygan WI USA
Posts: 255
RE: "As Long as It's Legal"....Gimme a Break
What I find ammusing is when some people try to impose what THEY think is right on the rest of us. Usually with little or no facts or knowledge...it just SOUNDS right.
hunting over bait...SOUNDS easy. When done LEGALLY is harder than you might think
Hunting with a rifle SOUNDS easy, but plenty of gun hunters go home with unfilled tags each year (don't bet they are ALL supporters of QDM!)
haveing a bait pile SOUNDS like something the deer would flock too....but legal limits (at least former legal limits in WI) were not enough to draw more than a couple of deer together at any given time.
Hey, If we can't have deer close to each other...maybe we should ban breeding! THAT'S how ridiculous people can sound when they don't know of what they speak.
Oh yeah, I'd like to see that PROOF that baiting spreads CWD. I WON'T bait this year, it's the law...AND we don't KNOW if it spreads CWD....better to be safe for now. Just don't spew your morals at ME.
hunting over bait...SOUNDS easy. When done LEGALLY is harder than you might think
Hunting with a rifle SOUNDS easy, but plenty of gun hunters go home with unfilled tags each year (don't bet they are ALL supporters of QDM!)
haveing a bait pile SOUNDS like something the deer would flock too....but legal limits (at least former legal limits in WI) were not enough to draw more than a couple of deer together at any given time.
Hey, If we can't have deer close to each other...maybe we should ban breeding! THAT'S how ridiculous people can sound when they don't know of what they speak.
Oh yeah, I'd like to see that PROOF that baiting spreads CWD. I WON'T bait this year, it's the law...AND we don't KNOW if it spreads CWD....better to be safe for now. Just don't spew your morals at ME.
09-07-2002, 12:49 AM
#27
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 3,903
RE: "As Long as It's Legal"....Gimme a Break
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>the privelege of hunting.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
Hunting is a RIGHT......not a privilege.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
To some extent it is a privelege. If you're caught and convicted of poaching , dont you lose your hunting priveleges? It's no different than losing your driving priveleges if your caught drunk driving.
To me , a "right" is , our "right" to remain silent or our "right" to freedom of speech. When law dictates wether we keep those "rights" then they become a privelege.
"Nocked,cocked & ready to rock"
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>the privelege of hunting.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
Hunting is a RIGHT......not a privilege.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
To some extent it is a privelege. If you're caught and convicted of poaching , dont you lose your hunting priveleges? It's no different than losing your driving priveleges if your caught drunk driving.
To me , a "right" is , our "right" to remain silent or our "right" to freedom of speech. When law dictates wether we keep those "rights" then they become a privelege.
"Nocked,cocked & ready to rock"
09-07-2002, 06:42 AM
#28
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: San Marcos TX USA
Posts: 187
RE: "As Long as It's Legal"....Gimme a Break
I think we should ban cars. More deer have been taken illegally with cars than any other weapon. If you hit a deer with cwd and drive to another state you are spreading this disease. Finally we have a reason to take the weapons of choice from the peta people.
09-07-2002, 07:19 AM
#29
Typical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Tall Corn Country
Posts: 616
RE: "As Long as It's Legal"....Gimme a Break
Many good posts - I think most of the individuals here will have their own personal ethics and morals - which will generally be more restrictive than the current game laws, and they will hold themselves to their own individual level.
For those who do not, they will oftentimes push the limits and overstep the law.
For the rifle/shotgun/bow debate - there is a great article in the September issue of the North American Hunter by Jim Van Norman "An Internal Debate: Downfall of the Hunting Community"
For those who do not, they will oftentimes push the limits and overstep the law.
For the rifle/shotgun/bow debate - there is a great article in the September issue of the North American Hunter by Jim Van Norman "An Internal Debate: Downfall of the Hunting Community"
09-07-2002, 07:52 AM
#30
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 9,175
RE: "As Long as It's Legal"....Gimme a Break
Wolfen, you come down here to Texas and tell these good ol' boys you're wanting to take away their rifles and handguns and make 'em hunt with shotguns and muzzleloaders only. Make sure your medical insurance is paid up and you have mental health benefits. Since (according to their point of view) you're obviously totally nuts and have a death wish, they'll toss you in the rubber room.
You start badmouthing their feeders though, you'll get your butt kicked in.
You start badmouthing their feeders though, you'll get your butt kicked in.