Well a 400 minimum would shut down the crossbow and the handicapped hunter.That would only hurt the disabled.Dont make any sense.

But tell us how you really feel about the UBP, lochorns. The 400-grain minimum is not arumor from the UBP, but rather a reccomendation by the Game Commission. It is under consideration along with a 35-pound draw weight minimum. I agree with the draw weight minimum, but disagree with the arrow weight minimum. I think that many youngsters and women would be left out shooting the lower limit bows. A 35-pound bow is quite capable of delivering a killing shot with an arrow less than 400 grains.
Lochorns, I don't know where you're getting your info on the UBP, but you really check it out for yourself. If you have an issue with bowhunting in PA, then join and be heard. It is a shame the organization fighting for our bowhunting rights in PA only has 6000 members out of over a quarter million archers in the state. Put your time and energy into helping rather than harping. You truly have misconceptions about the organization.

I don't know anything about the UBP, but I do think that all bowhunters should be members of their state bowhunting organizations. That way they can make their voices heard, both within the organization and with the game commissions.

About the idea of shooting 400 grains minimum...

I didn't have a grain scale back in those days of course, but going by how much cedar arrows weigh today, I was probably shooting arrows around 475 grains when I was a youngster. Shooting them out of a 40 pound solid glass recurve. Didn't keep me from hunting. I killed lots of rabbits, squirrels, dove, quail, fox, coyote and a chicken. Got my butt busted over the chicken of course, and I had to draw and pluck it, but we ate good that night.<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

I don't buy the argument that it would keep women and kids out of the woods. In fact, I think the lower draw weight bows SHOULD shoot heavier arrow weight in relation to the draw weight. The heavier arrow takes more energy from the bow, and light bows don't put out that much energy. They need to maximize what energy they do generate.

Light draw hunters would have to shorten their maximum range with the heavier arrows, but again, that would insure their arrows arrive on the animal with enough retained energy to get the job done.

Crossbows can shoot a 20&quot; 2219 with 5&quot; vanes and 125 grain heads and meet the 400 grain minimum. Problem there is they would have to get away from the low end models and go to some of the high performance stuff. After messing around with my low end crossbow, I think that isn't such a bad thing either.

I can see how some people don't like it, but I don't see how anyone would be kept from hunting by it.

Edited by - Arthur P on 02/07/2002 09:18:05

Without sounding repetitive,lochorns, a crossbow is not a bow and except for the disabled does not belong in PA's archery season. Use them during regular firearms season, but not archery. If it isn't drawn and held in the presence of the animal, it is not a bow for archery season.

If memory serves me, there was a post and discussion on this a couple of weeks back, either here or on the tech forum. You guys that are interested in this might want to check it out for additional info/opinions.

The 400 grain rule is another example of a bad way to legislate common sense. If a rule must be instituted, Lilhunter has the best option IMHO.

The suggestion did come right from the PGC!

The UBP and its (at that time) 3000 members are solely responsible for the efforts that resulted in archers having a six week early season that extended into the rut. That alone was enough for me to commit to a life membership. I will agree that tones of elitisim sometimes filter down from some of it's leadership but they have done way more good than harm. If a few boneheads within a membership is reason to abandon an organization or entity, very few would ever exist (including this forum<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>) Their primary focus is to promote and protect bowhunting and bowhunters and they do just that. The UBP is opposed to crossbows only for the able bodied in archery season as it now exists. They have not opposed it in gun seasons where the vast majority of Pa. hunters and their membership believe it belongs. It's a shame, but not unusual that a group like the UBP has a membership that equals only 2% of those that should be a member of some group to represent them.

the wifes shooting 420 grain arras out of her 40lb bow, more then adequate for killing big game in Alaska. Obivously she isnt pulling enuf to hunt moose bison muskox elk and mt goats but what she can hunt she could kill!

As for the arrow weights and cranking a bow down....punch numbers down range, you would be suprised what you find at 20-30 and beyond as far as you KE and Momentum both! Your KE is going to be effected more obviously as the momentum is kinda a by product if you will.

Saying it will limit women and children....I dont think it would, however I do agree they should be on the higher end of the weight per pound of draw to acheive maximum penetration.

There is however more to all of this being penetration is the hole goal here! Arrowflight, type of arrow, broadhead design, all play just as much of an important factor as the weight, KE, or Momentum does. Maybe what we should be asking for is more education by the folks at be who know the figures and can sit and put the hard numbers on your plates instead of posing more rules. Being knowledge is the key to success is it not.

I still think if they are going to try and mandate something, arrow weight shouldnt be it....grains per pound of draw should....if you are under by as little as cyclone said, I dont see where jumping up 10 or 20 grains in weight is going to hurt more so where it is going to help in your 'quests' to maximum penetration. It targets more of the folks shooting setups way below whats already recommended! Throw in mech heads and you have a hole nother ball game (ie more numbers and figures to....figure out!). Should we be limited by these figures....I can say we wouldnt if more people understood them but more importantly maintained them!

btw cyclone, I dont feel it will limit women and children/young adults.

67lb bow 400 grain arrow 5.97
400gr arrow 40lb bow 10 grains per pound...

Hey, imagine this, another thread, another tirade by the most argumentitive, unhappy person, I have come across in a long time! Why do you insist on dragging the ubp into every conversation on this site? I am sure that you have first hand knowledge of the ubp spreading this false propaganda!
And, any poll that involves archery regs., or archery season should not, not, NOT, NOT, be voted on by firearm hunters.
Also, I have only been a member of this site for about 2.5 monthes, but have NOT seen the UBP post on here yet.
As far as slanted views go....
Moderators, I will apologize beforehand, and if that is not enough, I will understand, and I have had fun on this site, but this guy has caused trouble enough! Never a positive word on any subject, always flies into direct attacks on others, openly challenges moderators, and just generally causes unrest here. There, now I feel better.
As far as unbiased reports go...lets be honest for once! Any report that does not mimic your views lochorns, is biased, in your mind.
I would get my money back for that inferior speak/type program, too! Even though it can understand what is said, it still can`t spell. Probably sabatoged by the UBP.<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

from an ignorant guys point of view...just what is UBP? United bowhunters of Pa?