Is any shot better than no shot ?
 

Zaft shot a potential world record buck. The shot he took was at an unknown distance, on a deer that had slowed from trotting to a walk (I assume a fast walk). He hit the deer high and too far back ( paced off to right under 30 steps after the hit). We all know the story now, he lost the animal, it was found by a landowner the following evening and the rack was given back to him.

My question - can anyone fault Zaft for shooting at a walking/fast walking deer ? Would any of you shoot have shot at it ? What if it was a doe, would it have mattered ? I have shot deer with a compound as the start to step, but NEVER walking. The questions and answers on the quatering away topic made me think - is any shot better than no shot ? I mean, Zaft did NOT have a good shot IMO, yet he took it. Experience leads to not taking iffy shots, but a lot of people say "if you don't shoot, you aint going to kill anything".

Opinions ?

RE: Is any shot better than no shot ?
 

I had a shot at a 10 pt. I had scouted all summer in 1996. It was late Oct., and he was coming right at me along the fence row to check out the 6 point and does right next to me playing around. I drew back at about 50 yards as he steadily walked towards me on a pace that would bring about 25 yards to the north of me, at an angle from left to right. I held on his lung area and followed his slow walk to the other deer-45,40,35, and then he was behind a tree and I let down. The 6 point came to challange him and he stopped. The two bucks came together and pushed each other around-pretty exciting! Actually so exciting that when the shot presented itself at 25 yards I touched off the shot without even having the sight on the deer! Complete miss!

Here I had followed that buck for probably 20 seconds, calm, relaxed and in the crosshairs the entire way, but missed him because of a now-cured case of target panick.

I don't know, looking back I kind of wish I would have taken the shot when I had the chance the first time, but it just didn't feel right and I'd probably do the same thing again(maybe not the miss I hope!). Sometimes it's hard to tell what you'll do in the excitement of it all.

Jeff...U.P. of Michigan.

RE: Is any shot better than no shot ?
 

Shouldn't take iffy shots anytime. Now having said that I am going to get scorched for this one. I have shot more deer walking than standing still. I didn't plan it that way, it just worked out that way. NOT at a fast walk, but a slow slow meandering walk, um a no hurry walk. Deer are NOT as alert while at a slow walk as they would be standing still.

RE: Is any shot better than no shot ?
 

I have shot 2 bucks that were walking very, very slowly. I think that any shot IS NOT BETTER, than no shot. If you don`t have a good, ethical shot, you should hold off. Have I ever made a bad hit on a deer? You bet! Did it twice. But, in the last 40 deer that I have taken with a bow, I have not made even a marginally bad shot. Has my shooting ability improved in this time? NO! But my brain sure has. I will never forget what I had to go through on those two bad hits I made, nor will I forget what the deer must have gone through. Hey, it`s just my opinion, but I think we should all take only very high percentage shots. The ones we KNOW we can make, not the ones we THINK we can make.
As far as the Zaft buck goes, I don`t know the whole story, but it seems like a shot was forced that really should`nt have been taken. But, I don`t know for sure what really happened.

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RE: Is any shot better than no shot ?
 

To answer your question ,NO NEVER.If I would of come home when a kid and told my dad I took a bad shot and wounded the deer and cant find it.He would of beat my butt into the next state.

RE: Is any shot better than no shot ?
 

With my grizzly bear this spring I felt like the standing frontal shot that he offered me was a better alternative than to not shoot him at all. That was in the moment though, watching the video of it, the bear seemed more curious than aggressive, but his snapping jaws and stiff posture helped me make up my mind to get an arrow in him when he stood up. I felt it was then or never, or possibly worse.

Maybe Zaft felt that was his only chance at the buck. Hard to say and speculate what he was thinking, but I fully agree that iffy shots should be reconsidered. It takes some experience and self discipline to make the right shot in your situation.

<font color=red>ArcticBowMan</font id=red>

RE: Is any shot better than no shot ?
 

I don't expect anybody to watch my back, I don't care if others think I'm being harsh. My answer is HELL NO!
I've heard people say if you don't shoot you'll never kill anything. Yes thats true BUT IT DOESN'T MEAN IF YOU DON'T SHOOT THIS DEER YOU'LL NEVER GET ANOTHER CHANCE!
Sorry about yelling. You'll always have another chance at a better shot.
I hate Hail Mary shots, and the people who take them, they are not people who are concerned with quick humane kills. Some people might not feel this way, but on the same hand there are others who do.

Now that I'm through ranting, I apologize for yelling, again.

RE: Is any shot better than no shot ?
 

He realy had no shot at all. I let a monster 10 point go at 10 yards! It was raining, and he was standing in some brush. I probably could have gotten an arrow in him, but I wasn't going to take a chance. I know what he did, he shot and hoped he hit the the deer. He did, made a poor hit etc. I know this happens all the time, But that still doesn't make it right! How many more people have let potential monster deer walk becuase of a poor shot? I congratulate him on a fine buck, but condem him for making such a poor choice in his shot selection. The problem is now he is someone in the spotlite, and others will follow his lead, Heck if he can do it I know I can. Bad shots should never be taken.

TAKE YOUR KIDS HUNTING AND YOU WON'T BE HUNTING FOR YOUR KIDS

RE: Is any shot better than no shot ?
 

If you cant get a good shot off, then dont risk it. You will have more chances.

&quot;People who live in glass houses should not throw stones&quot;


AllenC

RE: Is any shot better than no shot ?
 

I wouldn't consider it a difficult shot if the deer was walking slow inside of 15 yards. If it was walking fast at 25 yards, then I see the potential for lots of things to go wrong. At the sound of the bow, the deer may stop or it may not. Lead it a bit, and if it stops then you hit too far forward. Not a shot that should be taken in my opinion.

RE: Is any shot better than no shot ?
 

&quot; Maybe Zaft felt that was his only chance at the buck &quot;

Beautifullt put ABM. I think it WAS his only shot, so was that one shot, at an unknown distance, ground level on a deer that had slowed from trotting to a (fast) walking better than not getting the shot at all ? Remember, Zaft wounded this great animal and lost it.

AL F - its offseason, and topics like this makes everyone think. Ethics is the core of our sport. A little less than half of the people in two threads, two different boards, would take quartering to shots, shots that are NOT reccommended by the IBEF. Why would they take this shot then ? Testimonials have shown that it kills deer within 40 yards and deer can be lost as well. Sure, the same can be said for any shot, but most agree that a broadside and quartering away shots are best. So why settle for an iffy quartering to shot, and in this case a fast walking shot ? Because maybe its the only shot you have, and rather than not shooting, you'd rather take the high risk shot (you being anyone) ? If thats true, and I think it is, than thats poor judgement IMO, and the core of bowhunting has shown its true colors in people.

My closet ? I have botched shots before, but not on fast walking deer of quartering to me animals. Closets can be closed if the person can honestly say they learned from their mistakes. Would Zaft take that shot again ? I bet you $1,000 he would. Would I ever take that shot ? I can 100% honestly say I would not, not even on that animal. Why ? For the very reason of my example - Zaft shot, wounded and lost a fantastic animal. Had the farmer not found it, the animal would have been lost and thats a true shame.

RE: Is any shot better than no shot ?
 

NO NO NO. One should never wing a shot and hope they get the deer. THe Zaft shot was horrible. I have taken a couple walking shots at deer, but they were less than 13 yds and walking SLOOWW. Wide open shooting windows too, so that defelctions weren't a worry. Although some might disagree since I said I would have shot at pic A, I feel my shots are pretty conservative. I've only taken a couple shots that have even come near 20yds. I never had regrets for not shooting, nor have ever wanted to take an arrow back(redirect it maybe :))

RE: Is any shot better than no shot ?
 

NO!!!!
In hunter eduacation, you are taught NOT to shoot at moving deer! No exceptions! I have drawn on bucks that come in on the run hoping that they would stop. Only then will the arrow fly.
Zaft took a very big chance and it did not go his way. Someone else found his kill. The trophy animal deserved better.IMO

RE: Is any shot better than no shot ?
 

if it is not a good high % shot i do not shoot. i had a doe this season 15 yards streight on shoot and i was really wanting another deer. but passed on a shot and let her walk. the things that go through your mind at the moment of truth is amazing. i am glad i made the decision it was the right and ethical decision no matter how easy it seemed at the time.

RE: Is any shot better than no shot ?
 

This guy is supposed to be a great 3d archer and hunter and he blew the shot.Did he kill the animal or coyotes,no one will ever know.Enough can go wrong when you think you have the perfect shot,why risk an iffy one?

RE: Is any shot better than no shot ?
 

Good topic Stealthy. And let me say that I condsider your opinion very ethical.
It's hard for me to say if I can fault Zaft for shooting. But, I will say that it was a bad shot.
I actually shot at a buck that was walking fast at about 25 yards. It was my first year of bow hunting and I did what I would do in shotgun season. Found the lane that he was going to go through and shot when he got there. Only problem was that I made a liver hit instead of a lung hot. I didn't realize how much a deer could move before the arrow got there. I found the deer after waiting six hours about 300 yards away. This was a learning experience for me, and to this day I would never take the shot again.
I will only shot at non-moving deer or, like you will wait for that tail flicker and step.
To answer your other questions.
No - I would not have shot at the Zaft buck.
No - I don't think that any shot is better than no shot.

RE: Is any shot better than no shot ?
 

Wheres all the guys who take quartering to shots ?

RE: Is any shot better than no shot ?
 

OK, so Zaft took a bad shot (and isn't he supposed to be some great archer?? Hmm...) and HE DID NOT ACTUALLY RECOVER THE DEER. I say that cause he was unable to use the meat, so he only revered a deer's remains, or recovered a deer's antlers.

So your question is answered by your own example. Is any shot better than no shot? NO. Zaft proves it or he would have had some meat in his freezer. He got lucky that the farmer even told him about the deer instead of walking over and getting it himself.

The better question to ask is &quot;How far can I and do I want to track this deer if I shoot?&quot; The place I hunt now only offers me about 40 acres, so I could shoot a deer and he could run off the property and I MAY have a hard time getting permission to get him,depending on which way he goes. So, I need to take good shots.

Maybe if you have 1000 acres its not as big a deal, you can walk a few miles tracking deer, but I think the Zaft buck deserved a quick, humane kill as much as any doe I have ever shot.

--Jim

RE: Is any shot better than no shot ?
 

well I can only speak for myself on this one and the answer is if I have &quot;any doubt&quot; and I do mean &quot;any&quot; then I dont take the shot
There will always be another time to take a good shot

RE: Is any shot better than no shot ?
 

I've shot nearly all of my deer while they were walking and have never &quot;lost&quot; a deer because it was walking. Of the six bucks on my wall, only one was quartering away, standing still. I've killed two bucks and a doe that were quartering towards me. The two bucks died within 50-75 yards, the doe went about 300 yards and it was not as good of a shot. I don't recommend taking a quartering towards shot and I will avoid it if possible but if it is the only shot I will have and I really want the animal, I will take the shot. If I was Zaft, who knows...to say would be judging a situation I was not in. If the buck &quot;was&quot; running but had slowed and was then just &quot;walking&quot; and the lane was clear and he was within 30 yards and was offering a shot at his vitals, I take the shot. Stealthy, I respect the heck out of your position on this matter but I've either been lucky or good with the shots I've taken because I've not wounded any deer in the last 10 deer I've harvested in the last 8 years I've hunted. When I first began bowhunting, I was a bit anxious and inexperienced and have a couple wounds in the closet that I'm not proud of.

RE: Is any shot better than no shot ?
 

I have shot walking deer also, I don't think its a big deal, for me it would have to be a slow walk, or sneek. And 30 yds is pushing my limits for a shot so I would look for an ideal shot at that distance. The walking deer I have shot were 20-22 yds and double lung and heart, so I think I am ok to that range.

But I think I recall reading that Zaft was walking out of his hunting area when he shot? Was he in a blind or a stand? I think he was not. So he was in a place he was not set up to hunt from, surprised by a deer, yardage unknown. That probably made for a bad shot as much as anything.

I don't really fault him for taking the shot as much as I do for not trying harder to recover it. I would have take 3 days off work if I had to in order to keep looking for the deer. But thats me. I surely don't want to come across as holier than thou, cause I could make a bad shot any time. I think Zaft compounded it by not being in his stand where he knew the yardages (of course he may never have seen the deer from there either).

--Jim

RE: Is any shot better than no shot ?
 

nope...any shot is not better than no shot IMO, because many deer have died slow agonizing deaths due to irresponsible forced shots. Like the one I took on a moving deer when I was 23 years old. After looking for him all of that night and for weeks and even months later while shed hunting, I lost that deer all because I forced the shot and hit him in the front shoulder. That hunt still haunts me, yet it has taught me a valuable lesson. 10 years later I still remember how I felt (not good) after taking the shot even though the little voice inside said, &quot;dont&quot; its not worth it. I have held out on a few shots some would say I should have taken on mature bucks. One buck of which I hunted for three years, I had him at 40 yards standing still and broadside, I practice at that distance but I just couldnt take it, I didnt want to hit him wrong. Later that day my neighbor killed the buck with his rifle a massive tall tined 4x5 grossing in the low 160's, about a 1/4 mile from me. I could have forced the shot earlier that day, but I wasnt about to take a chance on a deer I so much respect for.I was a little bummed that the deer died by being shot by a fella off of a 4 wheeler, but oh well, thats the way it goes sometimes. One final ?,Would have Zaft taken that shot on a 140 class buck? I would like to ask him!

I applaud everyone who has the self discipline to hold off for a quality shot.

Shed

RE: Is any shot better than no shot ?
 

Well, NO .... BUT..... If you don't shoot sometime you aren't going to get them.<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle> I've shot several deer walking... but at 20 and under is preferred and then not at a fast walk. I deer leisurely strolling along is far less likely to duck at the shot than one standing and listening or even feeding.

RE: Is any shot better than no shot ?
 

davidmil - Why are there if's ? Either you support taking iffy shots or you don't. If you say &quot; If you don't shoot sometimes you aren't going to get them &quot; then the Zaft shot is no problem at all, neither is quartering to, head on or a deer in brush. I mean, you might slip an arrow through that brush, hit and break the neck bone or be dead on and bust through the should and into the heart/lung area ...... or you might not. I'd rather wait and take good shot and maybe not shoot than to take a bad shot or iffy shot and lose an animal.

wolfen - I got ghosts to, and they belong there because I have learned. Anyones whos had an elk hunt go bad learns how to wait for good shots or not take them at all. People say to use full length, heavy arrows, wait for broadside shots etc etc, and you know, they say it for a reason. The same applies here - people advise against quartering to shot because they are iffy, and the difference is that a poorly shot whitetail can still die and be found where a poorly shot elk you'll rarely find because of their size and endurance.

RE: Is any shot better than no shot ?
 

I have to say that I've shot a few of my deer walking. Not a fast walk though....a mosey! I don't think it's fair for anyone to question Zaft's desicions....none of us were there. We only know what he said. We all know that what a shot &quot;looked&quot; like isn't always what it was.

BTW are you writing a book Stealthycat?

RE: Is any shot better than no shot ?
 

Stealthy...when you say iffy shots, are you speaking of less than perfect, less than 75%, less than 50%, or less than 25%? I would absolutely agree that a quartering to shot is less than ideal and is a bit risky. And shooting at a walking deer is surely not a &quot;perfect&quot; shot but as my numbers indicate can result in just as good of results. So my question would be, do you think I'm unethical to take &quot;less than perfect&quot; shots at deer? Because if I did have to hold out for those &quot;perfect&quot; quartering away, deer still as a statue, wind calm, shooting lane clear enough to drive a truck through, sun at my back, clear sky with no precip forecast for the next 48 hours, kind of shots, I might have shot 1 or 2 deer in my life. Now I've had dozens and dozens of deer that have presented those shots but they weren't deer that I wanted to or could shoot...ie, fawns, little bitty spikes, forkies, doe's when I had already filled my doe tag etc so it makes it even that much more unrealistic to wait on the &quot;perfect&quot; shot on that &quot;perfect&quot; buck. Know what I mean?

RE: Is any shot better than no shot ?
 

Stealthycat... if u had a buck that size coming by u at about 30 yards i'm sure u'd take that shot kuz i sure as hell would!!!

RE: Is any shot better than no shot ?
 

bump

RE: Is any shot better than no shot ?
 

hmm...kinda makes me wonder a little Hoyt. Does the size of the rack then constitute wonding and loosing it? I mean, there was no other shot to take so I so I took the shot regardless cuz he was big attitude? I sure as heck dont think so! I am one of the no shot over any shot guys. I feel trying to kill an animal regardless of how big/small it is in the fastest way possible is what we try and do. Folks shooting neck shots, head on shots, TX heart shots, femur shots, heck they all can be perfectly lethal but it sure in the heck isnt a shot I care to attempt to take regardless if it possibly is the next world record godzilla monster or not! It shows a lack of respect to the critters we're hunting by doing such foolish things IMO!

RE: Is any shot better than no shot ?
 

wolfen68 - Good question. Of course theres always ifs in shooting at even a broadside, head down animal at a known 20 yards distance - things sometimes go wrong. What constitutes iffy ? Thats what this topic was and is about.

Quartering to shots mean several things. First the deer is still coming in. Second, its agreed that its not the best shot in the world, although people take it.

Is it unethical to take a shot like the one pictured ? I don't think so if you're a darn good shot at a known distance. I say that now because of all the posts on this here and on the Leatherwall. Its a killing shot for sure, I just know that a few inches high, low, left or right and you gotta a long tracking job ahead of you. In that, you ARE taking more of a chance than you need to. NBEF suggests waiting, and I have to agree.

hoytusa10 - You are wrong. I have a few hunting seasons under my belt bowhunting, I have shot several deer, I know what is and isn't a good killing shot - and 2 years ago I passed on this very shot on a 150 P&Y class 10 pointer. I don't regret it a bit - so you are very wrong in your assumption.

No book, just a lot of time the past couple of days to post and ponder.

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RE: Is any shot better than no shot ?
 

Hell no! I have been bowhunting for 13 yrs. I have taken a decent amount of deer during that time but usually small bucks and does. Two years ago I had seen a 130 class 6 point. The first time I saw him within bow range I took a less than ideal shot b/c I got caught in the moment. Thankfully the shot did not kill the deer (I have seen him since). It made me sick to think at what I had done. Because I took that shot I never got another opportunity for a &quot;true&quot; shot. This year I passed up my biggest bow kill (120 8pt) 3 times within 30 yds because the shot wasn't ideal and I didn't want to take another chance of wounding and not recovering.

Sorry to drag on but it bothers me when people take marginal shots. Here is another situation. A friend used his buck tag on a small not-typ 10 pt this year. While hunting for a doe he got on video tape a buck of a lifetime. 12 pts at least 180. Just huge. He had already used his buck tag so he went and told his father in law where the buck had entered a small strip of woods. The father in law goes to the strip of woods, climbs into his stand, pulls his bow up. When he gets his bow up the buck is standing 35 yds in front of him. He takes a shot. They tracked for 2 days and over 2 miles. They never found the deer. When asked why he took the shot he said &quot;you've got to take the shot that is presented to you&quot;. That's bull! If he would have waited longer or for another day a good shot could have presented itself or he could be gearing up this off-season for a shot on that buck next year. But because he took a marginal shot that deer has probably been eaten by yotes and the antlers by mice. Bowhunting is not just about getting a shot it's about enjoying the outdoors and waiting/allowing that perfect shot to present itself. IMO

RE: Is any shot better than no shot ?
 

Stealthy Cat.... MY IF's as you call them were qualifiers. Just like yours would be on a perfect broadside shot at 80 yards. The IF would be &quot;If he's at 30 or less&quot;. I'm sorry, but I don't hold the DEER to God like status that some do. If I think I can make the shot and I want to.... I'll take it. Your idea of what is ethical should be confined to your abilities and equipment. What I think is a legitimate shot I'm going to take if I want to. My shot may be something you're totally uncomfortable with. I know what the &quot;BOOK&quot; says for hunter safety. I am a qualified IBEF instructor.

My &quot;IFS&quot; on &quot;Risky&quot; shots as you call them are my choice, my ifs and my risk. If I can make the shot I take it. The question was referring to the Zaft shot (risky or not). I wasn't there. If you'll notice in my original reply to this question I didn't say he shouldn't have taken the shot. I said I've taken similar shots at closer ranges. But, I wasn't there. His idea of a fast walk and mine may be two entirely different things.

Do I support risky shots? Not for me. Do I take walking shots... Yup.. within reason &quot;for ME&quot;. Do I have to have the world in perfect motionless harmony to dare take a shot on a deer? NOPE. Will I take a shot you might find risky if not down right immoral? Yup... when and if I think I'll make it. Does the world standstill if my shot is less than perfect. It's an absolute bummer. In 31 years of bowhunting a couple things have happened. But, for the most part it's been a great ride, I've got a lot of game, and I'm always ready for the shot. I will not limit myself to someone elses idea of what is an &quot;Ethical shot&quot; for me.

You bet you there are IFS. It's not black and white... one rule fits all. If you want that it has to be a law, not your feelings. Incidently... I was one of the FEW who said they would probably wait on 1,3 and 4 for a better shot to present itself. The only shot I knew for sure, right now, was number 2. I see no reason to suspect a better shot won't happen. NOW .... if I thought that was all I was going to get... number 1 catches an arrow now at close range.

Edited by - davidmil on 02/02/2002 13:32:09

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RE: Is any shot better than no shot ?
 

Hi ya'll, I'm new to this BB' glad to be amongst people who enjoy hunting as much as I do. Hey let me tell you what happened to me this past Nov. Iam a seasoned hunter been hunting 29yrs and will not risk a bad shot on any deer regardless of size or sex. Well this last Nov. I had a 130 class buck at 30 yards and would not take the shot because he was quartering to me. Well it paid off for me because I had a larger buck come in from the other direction and I ended up harvesting a 153 5/8 P&Y buck.<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

RE: Is any shot better than no shot ?
 

BBHPete...<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>...you mean there are guys in PA that will pass up a 135 class buck for something bigger??? Alt must be doing his job well then. My impression from Kansas was that there were very few 135 class bucks in PA, let alone 150 class bucks!!! Good for you!

RE: Is any shot better than no shot ?
 

wtg Pete! I would rather go home with nothing then wonder if I kilt or wounded any day because of taking a low % shot just because of antler sizes! Dave is partiall right, its up to the individuals and there skills, but most folks are smart enough to let the critters pass and take the higher % shots then to risk wounding, not nessicarly perfectly broadside or quartering away! But yet we dont shoot for the hind quarters hoping to hit a 1/2&quot; diameter artery either!

RE: Is any shot better than no shot ?
 

wolfen68, the buck I was speaking of I got in N.Y., but I do pass up small bucks in Pa. also. Don't get me wrong I would have shot the 130 class buck if he would have presented an ethical shot. But I'm glad he did'nt.<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

RE: Is any shot better than no shot ?
 

davidmil - AHH, another can of worms we open. So by your thinking, If I take gut and ham and head shot at deer from 10 to 50 yards, if I feel comfortable taking them, then thats okay with you ? If it is, then thats sad, because we as bowhunters live and die as an overall group - and the stats that animal rights groups throw around is not all that far from the truth. You seem to actually advocate the &quot;any shot is better than no shot&quot; theme, simply by justifying it with a &quot;if it feels good to you&quot; attitude.

I don't buy that, I don't think I ever will. I can honestly say that Zaft took a horrible shot. Why ? Duplicate it davidmil, put a McKensie on rollers and wheel that sucker by at a fast walk at around 30 yards. Give 10 bowhunters each a shot and you tell me all 10 are going to hit ? Then set up a 20 yards broadside, standing still target. I betcha all 10 average bowhunters hit the kill zone. You tell me which is more ethical, which is the better shots, which would result in more kills/less wounds ?

As for this quartering to shot - I still think its a killing shot, but I think the lost deer would be way above normal as would the wounding rate compared to broadside or quartering away. You've read the people who've lost deer quartering to, and the people who've taken them. You tell me the stats and if its acceptable. I say its not, too many iffs, too many wounded deer.