RE: Is any shot better than no shot ?
 

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
...we as bowhunters live and die as an overall group - and the stats that animal rights groups throw around is not all that far from the truth...
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
Unfortunately this is very true and the only way to beat the animal righ...... The anti hunter groups, is for us to self police ourselves and instill some (here it comes)ethics, whether it's... (oh, what's the words I want?) getting people to be more picky(?) in their shot selection. Or to only take shots that will result in a quick kill.
Shorter distance shots, shooting known distances, not &quot;shooting from the hip&quot;.
well, I'm outa pennies for now.

RE: Is any shot better than no shot ?
 

Stealthy; Whatever................ I will guarantee the next shot I take I won't be thinking &quot;is this an OK shot according to Stealthy&quot;. It'll be me, my bow and my ability and my past experiences. I never said I would take Zafts shot. I don't practice at fast walking 34 yard deer. That's what he thought it was. I don't even like 35 yards standing still if I think I'll get a better chance. I like about 10 yards... but I did kill the two I shot at at 40 plus and 63 others of varying shorter distances. I'll take any shot I feel good about. I don't like quartering too. I therefore pass on them. I have seen people loose deer that were broadside standing still at 10 yards. Does that mean we shouldn't take the shot ever again? Stuff happens.... we regroup... and try to do it better the next time. You cannot dictate what's a good and acceptable shot for me. I know of an Olympic gold medalist that missed about 5 deer before getting one. Go figure.

RE: Is any shot better than no shot ?
 

I left a nice 9 pointer go a couple of years ago becouse it was walking by my tree at 25 yards. I couldnt get him to stop so I left down on my bow and left him go. I took that deer during rifle season though so it worked out.

I feel that its up to you. If you are comfortable making a shot like that, and are successful making that shot, then ok. But if you are not, like myself, then no, leave him walk. We, as hunters owe that to the animal we persue and love. There is nothing worse then wounding an animal on a half ass shot you just hoped you would make. We all make bad decisions sooner or later, its part of hunting. But, learning and limiting these mistakes makes us better hunters.

RE: Is any shot better than no shot ?
 

Please don't take this as an offence to any of you (Im going to be a really outspoken ignorant fool) human evolution, ahh heck. It is our whitts that make us men. But this anti survival, farm making cow eating, tofu slurping garbage from those who are so evolved to call themselves anti-hunters. They can quote me on that if they like. We have lost sight of the past and everything that has brought us to where we are. Im 21 and I enjoy and cherish hunting, I enjoy and love nature, I watch nature and biological show's on television all the time, they are really all I can stand on television. But in a situation with an anti-hunting person, or group of people, I have lost the right to defend what is mine and was given to me by you our fathers and mothers, and peers. We as hunter's are archaic, oldschool, non-evolutionary, at least that's how I figure anti hunters would have everyone beleive. I am going to school to become a hunting outfitter. I will jump through the hoops of the government, and my fellow hunters and fishermin. But by god I will not jump through the hoops of an anti-hunting person ever. I agree with davidmill, If I feel comfortable about the shot, I will take it. I beleive in and listen to reason, of those who are reasonable and wise. A fool can't learn from another fool.
Sorry in advance, and good shooting.
Dylan

&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;--------o--&gt; Im not a killer!!!

Edited by - 55#recurve on 02/06/2002 00:05:37

RE: Is any shot better than no shot ?
 

I speak from no experience (next season will be my first), but have common sense. I agree with davidmill. If you feel the best shot you're presented with is one you can make a good kill on, take it. Stealthy,you mentioned head, guts, ham 10-50 yds. David never said he'd take a shot like that, only what he felt comfortable with. I'm sure he and others with lots of experience would attempt shots I or others wouldn't. I build & race drag cars & do things in them others wouldn't. 330 ft over 90 mph looking out the side window at the guard rail to tell where I am 'cause the front end was up too high to see straight ahead. Others let out, I don't until I absolutely have to. Same thing. If you feel you can handle it, go for it. If not, wait or forget it. That's what I get out of what david is saying. Believe me, I'll be very conservative until I gain some experience. Then I'll loosen up a little.

Phil.

RE: Is any shot better than no shot ?
 

Oh hell, we're in trouble now. People are agreeing with me.

[Deleted]
 

[Deleted by Admins]

RE: Is any shot better than no shot ?
 

People's ability varies greatly. I know guys who shouldn't take 20 yard broadside shots. They're not good enough at that range when shooting at a live animal. On the other hand I know others that can easily handle a quartering-to shot. One friend in particular, has set up his bow to take a large whitetail at almost any angle. He's a big guy with a 31&quot; draw and shooting a custom compound pulling about 90 lbs. He's shooting this spear for an arrow with a huge broadhead that will bust through about anything with the K.E. he's shooting. This same guy is an excellent shot, especially when focusing on a live whitetail. I happen to know he's taken many deer quartering towards him and from what he says, he's never lost a deer he hit. His set-up and abilities allow him to take a shot that many others probably shouldn't.

Myself, I always seem to wait for a better shot and then afterwards, I wonder if I should have taken what was offered. With the use of grunt calls, rattling bags, and other attractants, I always view a buck as having a chance of getting closer, so I'm always waiting for the &quot;dunk&quot; shot.

[Deleted]
 

[Deleted by Admins]

RE: Is any shot better than no shot ?
 

Just got home last night and Bowhunter is lying on the table. Browsed thru Zaft's story this a.m. and was appaled to read what he did especially after his letting it be known of his 3D accomplishments. Then got on here and this is the first time I've read this post.
Was the shot one that should have been taken? Me-no, for him-only he knows. My assumptions are he forced the shot as it was the only one he felt he was going to get. I think the shot opportunity and animal placement was less then ideal. I agree with ethics in hunting and that not everone is going to hold to the same standards of ethics, just as not everyone is going to have the same limitations/abilities/comfort zone while hunting. Maybe he did feel comfortable with the shot, only he will know. But whatever he felt at the time it is now under everyones scrutiny. By making the claims of how good a 3D shooter he is he has now elevated himself on a pedistal as an &quot;expert&quot; or at least one who should know what the common person would do. If you (or he-Zaft) felt comfortable then we can't fault him for the shot but maybe for the publication of it. I know this is a hunting forum so things should be able to be said without fear of the anti's, but this is used against us and until people realize that there are no rules used by these people then we are hurting our own cause. What is my answer to where we should be allowed to talk as hunters? Not for me to say, I just have opinions like you. But I do feel we all need to better police ourselves, both words and acts if we want our ability (notice this is not a right or we wouldn't be able to lose it) to hunt to remain one we can enjoy.
I've seen alot of good points brought up on this discussion and hope to see more.

RE: Is any shot better than no shot ?
 

davidmil - My argument is this - by your reasoning, if I have a 8 inch hole that I think I can slip an arrow into a deers liver, as he's quartering to me - if I think I can pull that shot off, you or anybody else better not second guess me or tell me I;m taking a poor shot, isn't that right ? Even if I wound 3 or 4 deer every year - if I think I can make those shots I should go ahead and do it and it shoudln't reflect on the hunting community in the least ?

I aint buying that. Theres bad shots and theres good shots. Zaft took a bad one, a quarering to shot is not bad, but difinitely iffy because of the responses of people losing deer with that shot. Broadside or quartering away is best, and of course you'll see some of those shots go bad occasionally to, but you gotta admit the percentage is low compared to other questionable shots.

pdq 5oh - Your racing impacts who ? You and who else ? Your archery shot selection impacts you, the deer you're shooting at and archery as a whole, because the anti's are constantly attacking on the one point of archery we as a whole cannot defend - that many animals are shot and lost every year do to poor shot selection. Thats the difference.

IroquoisArcher - Heres the deal on the Zaft story. You are an non-hunter, neither for or against it. You read this article - a guy whos suppose to be a really good shot, shooting at a deer thats in a very poor position to shoot at with a bow, wounds it, doesn't recover it, loses the meat and its declared a World Record (not officially). What do you think you would think ? I would think that this is normal archery hunting - taking poor shots and losing game. A LOT of people will see this as such - and it builds this image of slob hunter shooting at whatever moves, taking any shot over no shot.
Zaft did it, and might very well be rewarded with a World Record title. If he is, I will NEVER be a member of nor be a part of the P&Y Club. I will not support those who support that type of hunting. I hope P&Y sees this and recognizes the ramifications if they declare the Zaft buck a World Record.

RE: Is any shot better than no shot ?
 

Zaft did exactly what many would do. He took the only shot offered because he was looking at the rack and not the situation. He saw $ signs and self importance, not a living being that deserves our respect and a clean, quick killing shot.

RE: Is any shot better than no shot ?
 

Stealthy, My racing has nothing to do w/ bowhunting. I realize that & used it only as an example. That's all!! But if someone feels the shot they have is makeable (clean, humane kill) within their abilities, I see nothing wrong w/ them taking a shot you disagree with. People have to police themselves & not take irresponsible shots that reflect badly on bowhunting as a whole. I understand what you're saying here, but some people are at a higher level of skill than others & can make shots others can't. I hope I don't ever make a bad decision in a situation where I have a tough call to make. If something is outside of my abilities, I back off.
Given what happened to Zaft he looks bad in my opinion. I hope, as you do, that he doesn't get the reward of the world record. I wasn't there so I really can't comment on what happened at the time of the shot. He's probably not the only hunter to leave a deer until the next morning only to have it found by coyotes. The reason it is so much in everyone's mind is the fact that the deer was so incredible, a possible new record.
I hope you didn't get the impression I was attacking you. I fear what the antis can do much as anyone here!! It comes down to personal choice, can I make the shot, is it a good shot? Live w/ the consequences.


Edited by - pdq 5oh on 02/06/2002 13:36:40

RE: Is any shot better than no shot ?
 

Wahya - If that is true, then people in archery need to do something. Its by this very admission that anti-hunting groups will win IMO. Anyone who doesn't believe that - sit back, do and say nothing and watch your heritage go away.

pdq 5oh - You've missed my post I guess - I left a P&Y class 8 pointer in the woods in Kansas overnight because I wasn't sure he was down - and the coyotes did find him. They ate some guts - opening the body cavity up, they ate some of the hams too - I am guessing I recovered 70% of the edible meat. I was careful, and cautious, because I did not want to push a wounded buck out of the bottoms into the prarie - impossible tracking that would have been. I would make that decision again too. Which leaves me thinking how a pack only ate 30% of my deer and almost all of Zafts ?

That said, I truly think I have changed my opinion a little on quartering to shots. I think now that they can be good clean shots if given the right circumstance and if shot by the archer who can make the shot. Why the change ? Because of those of you who have made and will continue to make that shot (especially the guy on the Leatherwall, shooting a BW recurve).<font size=4> BUT </font id=size4> I highly reccommend waiting, especially for novice hunters and those who aint made a lot of kills. I still don't think its a great shot - even a good shot, but it is a makeable shot and not neccessarily a bad shot given the scenario.

I doubt I'll ever see how Zaft's buck could be considered a good shot though ...

RE: Is any shot better than no shot ?
 

Stealthy, I'm not sure what i missed. My comment about leaving a deer overnight was meant to say others have been forced to make that decision. I think your decision to do it was the right one. Do you know how long after the shot Zaft recovered his deer? I was of the impression it was the next day. I agree, that's allot of meat to lose in one night. If it was longer, I have a harder time w/ his getting the record. That opens the door to anyone finding a dead deer & getting in the books without even having to shoot it.
I will say again I agree w/ you on bowhunters being their own worst enemy if they take bad shots & just wound deer. But the people that have the skill to make shots others can't make, and shouldn't take, shouldn't be berated for it.

Phil.

RE: Is any shot better than no shot ?
 

pdq 5oh - www.zaftbuck.com - read the story for yourself and tell me what you think. He shot the deer, waited 40 minutes I believe, and searched that evening, the next morning and the next evening with nothing. He didn't mention a blood trail or anything - indicating a non-lungs hit, possibly even a non-liver hit. Only a couple of drops of blood too ...

RE: Is any shot better than no shot ?
 

Stealthy I agree, but how do you fight greed when hunters today are being taught that the size of the rack is all that matters. I havn't seen such obsession since the gold rush, lol. Anyway, as long as that mindset is at the forefront of the hunters reasons for killing an animal, you're gonna have people that will go to any lengths to get that big rack and it all boils down to personal glory and monetary value.

Forgot to answer your question, No, I do not think that any shot is better than no shot.

RE: Is any shot better than no shot ?
 

Thats not what I was taught!



>>>>--------o-->

RE: Is any shot better than no shot ?
 

The pig's and sheep and cow who's soul purpose is to be taken and slaughtered for there meat, do the deserve any less then these deer. The tree's that are cut, and habitat lost with millions of species all over the world, to plant soy feilds and any other crop that vegitarian's eat, does that not deserve a second look. I sit here and read the worry about anti-hunter's but they don't seem to worry how many animals they kill in the process of cultivating land for their food sources. As far as poor shot's, and being taught to only look for a rack. That isn't me, I could care less if the deer I get has antler's or not, as long as it fills my freezer and I enjoy its bounty through out the winter and spring. If I take a broadside shot, quartering away shot, who's to say whether or not something will go wrong. A 34 yard or Metre shot at a deer that is at a run or slow run, is not a shot I would take. The probablility is far gone out the window with that one. But a quartering to shot, or even a straight on chest shot with a deer that is not moving or not alert, I think those have a good probability factor, given the shot is within a persons comfortable range, and the peron has experience with live animals. As far as ethic's. It's a moot point, how can one person or a group of people, that can't even grasp what the word ethical mean's, push those of us who always have ethics in the back of our mind in the hunting community around. Why do we allow people that would sooner tear down forest's and tree's killing hundreds, even thousands of species. So they can have crop's from which to feed themselves. With human's it will always be a never ending conflict, hunter's can't win but neither can anti hunters. So lets just be ethical, because it's what we should do, for ourselves and the animals we hunt. If you or I feel comfortable taking a quartering to shot and are willing to put the time into tracking and everything else a hunter must do then do it. Just a few thought's. Good shooting.
Dylan

>>>>--------o-->

RE: Is any shot better than no shot ?
 

Stealthycat, thanks for the link. After reading the article, I get the impression he forgot about everything else after the deer was found. I guess the risk of such scrutiny outweighs the anticipated rewards of having a potential world record for some people. Who knows, maybe his shot wouldn't even have been fatal. It only injured the deer enough to allow the coyotes to kill it. This has been enlightening.
In answer to your question, which I see as the thread name, NO!!

RE: Is any shot better than no shot ?
 

pdq 5oh - It IS an amazing read, isn't it ? You said &quot; It only injured the deer enough to allow the coyotes to kill it&quot; - I don't see how anyone could NOT think that. Zaft full well KNEW what caliber deer he was looking at, he KNEW the potetntial, and I think he KNEW he was going to take any shot he could at it, hoping above hope that his minimal shot (a fast walking deer at unknown yardage) would pay off, that he'd get lucky and kill it.

Sorry guys, I don't want to rely on luck. I want to take the highest percentage shot I can, and if that shot aint there, then let the deer walk. I've done it before, I'll do it again, and I'll look down on anyone who believes in the &quot;any shot is better than no shot&quot; philosophy.

55#recurve - I see what you are getting at, but I know of few anti-developement groups who are trying their darndest to stop all developement. The problem is VERY real, but overlooked (Colorado is a great example). What is real is anti-hunting groups, PETA being the top dog. Hundreds of millions go to them every year - they are not to be taken lightly. They point to bowhunting - and say &quot;look at the wounded animals !&quot;, and you know, they are right too. Until bowhunters as a whole can stop the minimal shot, until they can keep the number of lost animals down to a bare minimun (current pending world record (Zaft) was a lost animal, what does that say ?) then we are fighting a battle that'll be hard to win.

RE: Is any shot better than no shot ?
 

I am not going to knock Zaft for taking a
shot at a walking deer. As Davidmil said
*you* should take the shot that you think
you can make. I'm sure some of you have seen
Gene and Barry Wentzall videos. I saw one
where they did a two man drive. The one who
was posted took a shot at a buck in a full
run and zipped it. Was it a bad shot? I would
never have tried it. I sat there and said wow! The guy felt he could kill a running
deer with his longbow and he did. Zaft shooting a walking deer would be a piece of
cake.

RE: Is any shot better than no shot ?
 

stickerpt, it's a piece of cake shot if you make it. Zaft didn't. He wounded the animal and lost it.

Also, one of the advantages of shooting a longbow instinctively is the ability to swing the bow on target, lead and release. It takes years and years of shooting a longbow to get to know the weapon and yourself well enough to even consider such a shot. Besides, a shot on a running animal is a good one when made, but is still an iffy shot no matter who tries it and how good a shot they are. It only takes a zig or a zag from the unpredictable animal and you've got a miss or worse yet, a wounded and lost animal.

RE: Is any shot better than no shot ?
 

stickerpt - I saw that very same video footage - a very poor shot IMO. I bet if 100 archers took that shot, 90 of them would wound or miss the animal altogether - not what I would call a good percentage shot, would you ?

RE: Is any shot better than no shot ?
 

Stealthy, Do you really believe it would be as high as 90%?
IMO it would be higher... much higher, and the ones who did manage to harvest the animal did so out of pure luck.

RE: Is any shot better than no shot ?
 

Stealthy, no matter what we do, PETA is going to keep on complaining and complaining, because it brings in the money.(PETA,GREENPEACE. How does any organization make money, they advertise, whether it be propaganda or not, it does't really matter, I hate to say this, and Im not trying to be rude but every thing is pop culture, alot of people follow something even if it mean's nothing to them, simply because everyone esle is doing it(the word sheep comes to mind). PETA can't take a lick and spit in the dark at us, as long as we stay educated and stick together. Question's like ethical shots need to be asked about, but the ethics rule can't be set by someone that doesn't hunt and know's animal anatomy as well as a steak sitting on their plate. Zaft's shot was on a moving animal, poor shot, obviously he wasn't in his comfort zone, But Ive seen, pheasant taken at 20 yards full flight with a long bow, and deer being shot on the run, complete lung pass through, with a long bow, and compound. You can't gauge a whole groups agenda, by one person's poorly placed shot, and bad tracking job. Not one hunter is the same as the next.
It's all about the comfort zone and knowing when your there. Stay there. Good shooting.
Dylan

>>>>--------o-->

RE: Is any shot better than no shot ?
 

Oh and stealthy, when I was about 17, I could have taken a shot at Im sure a world class buck, In wandering river alberta, but all I was left with was a neck shot, and I never took it. What does that tell you about antlers and ethic's. Not all of us are out there for the antler's, Cause Im pretty darn sure, I could have zinged one right through his neck, he was only 25 yards away and I was well practiced for longer shot's then that. Good shooting.
Dylan

>>>>--------o-->

RE: Is any shot better than no shot ?
 

&quot; You can't gauge a whole groups agenda, by one person's poorly placed shot, and bad tracking job. &quot;

AHHH, we can't ? We judge most things by the way the entire group acts. Most importantly, we are a small group, even as a whole, and the facts that PETA publishes are speckled with enough pieces of truth to make it very difficult to fight them, especially when the latest North American Whitetail magazine publishes not one, but two deer, great bucks, that were hit and lost with archery gear yet were made to look like they harvested them. Guys, thats the very stuff PETA and those groups build on.

[Deleted]
 

[Deleted by Admins]

RE: Is any shot better than no shot ?
 

Ahhh but the in court the Law states the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you god. Speckles of truth don't mean manure, Even as a small group, we are still a strong group, for the most part with good ethic's. PETA can print all the malarky they want. So why don't we print, how many animals are hit by vehichles each year, Im sure people at PETA drive cars. Unless they can find some other way of paying for conservation, and keeping deer populations down then they have nothing. Our numbers don't lie either, and they aren't speckled with truth, conservation and population reduction is our specialization. That's my thoughts.
Good shooting.
Dylan

&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;--------o--&gt;

Edited by - 55#recurve on 02/09/2002 20:52:50

RE: Is any shot better than no shot ?
 

55#....we will see how strong we are in the near future with a bear baiting ban proposal in Alaska!

RE: Is any shot better than no shot ?
 

Dan, you gotta good point. Seems our strength here in California and many other states aint so good. We lost Mt. Lion hunting because of a vote from people who for the most part have only seen pictures of one, wouldn't have normally given lions a thought and have no concept what problems would occur. We lost lions because a group of anti's convinced the bureaucrats that lions were endangered and needed to be protected. Now, the bureaucrats had the actual data in front of them, yet they still put a bill creating a moratorium on hunting Lions before the general public for the vote. You should have seen the commercials on TV depicting hunters as the bad guys and the poor defenseless lions who needed to be saved. Those commercials weren't cheap. Millions were spent. The rest is history. Depredation permits are allowing lions to be killed, but they are over running the state and more lions are being seen in neighboring states as well. So much for intellegent voters. New Jersey hunters are getting pushed around pretty good and just had a bout with losing bear hunting. Washington outdoorsment are getting pushed around real good lately. If you all don't think public opinion sways political thinking, resulting in lost hunting opportunities, you all better think again.

Right now in every state in the union, there are people working diligently to stop hunting. Don't be mislead into thinking that because hunters are the true conservationists and put lots of dollars into game management that we will get any favors from the politicians. The anti's are backed by major corporations who have their own agendas and very wealthy individuals who not only have clout, do favors and hand out payolla enough to get the interests of the politicians, but also have their own agendas. The politicians don't care about the animals, nor do they care if you get to keep your hunting rights. If enough money can be generated to help offset what they would lose from shutting down hunting, you can kiss your hunting rights goodbye.

RE: Is any shot better than no shot ?
 

Wahya,
WELL SAID!