I can give you guys a first hand "Real World" example of speed vs. an alert deer "Ducking" an arrow.....(you guys do realize that they really aren't trying to avoid the arrow right?)

Anyway........1999.
I'm in a treestand about 18 feet up watching a creekbottom......from behind me on the slope came a lone large doe. She traveled a trail parallel to the slope and was almost at the same level as me. It was like shooting from the ground.

She spotted something she didn't like and was staring a hole right thru me.....but she was right there at 20 yards. Wide open absolutely perfect dead broadside.
I knew I shouldn't even try, but I did..... I drew back and she never moved, but she was at full alert.
It's one of those moments you know isn't going to be perfect, but you just can't stop yourself.
I held dead on her heart and released......

I was shooting a Mathews "Ultra Max" at 67# and a 350gr. arrow going 302fps.

She did the textbook "Duck" to bolt the second that release triggered.....I mean I don't even think the arrow cleared the bow yet.
But she never made it.
ALMOST......but didn't make it......I was holding dead heart, and that arrow was true at release......it hit her right at the base of her spine, still broadside, and destroyed the artery running under the spine. She bled out in about 5 seconds.

This is just my opinion now, and not fact, but now in my head.......from experience, if I have a good solid hold on a broadside or quartering deer......with any of my bows shooting 300+fps, 15 yards and under equates to a dead deer. I don't care HOW alert they are, I just don't think they're gonna make it..... I just adjust a bit and aim DEAD center heart
If they are not alert to begin with , there is NO WAY they are dodging an arrow that fast at any yardage under 20.....in this case I aim "TOP" of the heart.

An alert deer at yardages of 20 and beyond are BAD news for any speed bow......if I almost missed clean at 302fps on a dead broadside deer at 20 yards that should tell you something......especially since I was aiming pretty low.

Edited by - Matt / PA on 01/30/2002 17:51:22

Now Mat, I've analyzed your situation:

A deer's torso measures an average of 18" back to briskit, the heart being in the lower 1/3. That means the doe dropped nearly 12", OK lets say 10" in order to spine her. Using the theory provided in the article how can she drop faster than what gravity would allow?


Straight
---------------------------------------------
Okay, I see that caption, but all it seems to be saying is that the author got lucky on a long shot.
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You mean that he may have made a "Hail Mary" shot? No, he claims to have held low, contradicting what was written in the article. Don't get me wrong, I do not dislike him, I just don't buy this speed, speed, speed bull...

If you've never seen the duck, you are in the majority. I've never seen it with the naked eye, but I have on home made videos.


And just what is wrong with that 100fps arrow? Quiet and deadly, I say...

Now just how many,<font color=blue> hands down put them on the table guys</font id=blue>, how many of you with those smokin fast setups have had the opportunity to miss a shot only to follow up with a second and connect? (Those who never miss need not reply)

Quiet kills, speed thrills.....

Cyclone....maybe I shot a bit high?
I know the arrow looked true and I was aiming at the heart......the arrow didn't actually hit her in the spine. It traveled under the spine.....one blade on a 1 3/4&quot; cut broadhead just chipping the base of the spine.
Not sure of the exact measurements from heart to this artery......just telling you what happened.
Maybe like I said the fact that the deer was in motion it seemed before the arrow ever left had something to do with it......things happened very fast, but that's the image I have. Her starting to drop just as that release was touched.......maybe it was coincidence that the 2 happened at the same time, and she was going at the moment regardless of whether or not I was going to shoot?......I don't know, and obviously will never know.

And I'm not sure why you seem to think you can't have a fast,quiet and accurate set-up all at the same time? This isn't the days of 80# bows, overdraws and bowshots that sounded like the first day of rifle season.
The deer in this example is the last one that I can remember that even reacted to my bow going off.....they simply stand there, get shot, run off and end up in freezer paper.
I've simply got QUIET SPEED THAT KILLS.

But I'm still not sure how you are disputing the laws of gravity based on my example? When you are dealing in hundredths and thousandths of a second, a little head start can mean a HUGE difference and make Sir Issac Newton look like he didn't have a clue.

I do know one thing for sure....my example tasted wonderful.<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
And Cyclone......I never miss.<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>



Edited by - Matt / PA on 01/30/2002 21:17:54

Oh, and whackmaster, thanks.....Yes, that's the speed of sound give or take a couple, whether at sea level, or mile high, perhaps a little faster in a vacuum....regardless it is almost 4X faster than the fastest setup mentioned here so far...

6Ptsika, Hear! Hear! Good point! Glad were on the same page buddy..

NorJef....Good topic...covered many times over this will always be a hot topic...until IBO hits 1120 that is...

Now about that acceleration due to gravity, what is it? 32f/s/s. The second in the denominator is squared...That means the first foot the object is moving 32fps. The second foot it moves 64fps. The 3rd, 96fps... 0.05 sec = 19.2 inches of drop possible due to gravity alone......Yes, you made me pull out the dreaded physics book....

Keep pushin guys, ain't technology sweet!

Now Mat, look what you madee me do, edit a post...shame....but worth it....read your first line about maybe shooting a bit high and your last line about you never miss<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle> You, like the author of the article have contradicted yourself..How often do you shoot that high at the range? Might be time for a tuneup<img src=icon_smile_cool.gif border=0 align=middle>

Edited by - cyclone on 01/30/2002 21:29:49

I agree that quiet kills. But, I can also say, without reservation, that my first few compounds that ranged in speed from 180-220fps were louder than my last 5 or 6 that chrono @ 285-300fps. Granted, the older models had only rubber catwhiskers for noise/vibration reasons. Technology has come a long way in this department.
IMHO, arrow speed plays only a small part in preventing a deer from jumping/ducking the string. Much more important is a quiet bow, and NOT shooting at a wired deer.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>

You mean that he may have made a &quot;Hail Mary&quot; shot? No, he claims to have held low, contradicting what was written in the article. Don't get me wrong, I do not dislike him, I just don't buy this speed, speed, speed bull...
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>

I don't understand what your point is. In the article, the author states that an arrow going 280 fps will drop 9.5&quot; at 30 yards. His shot was at 40 yards with the deer dropping instantly upon the shot and he still hit it in the spine. I re-read it and it says nothing about him aiming low. It says if you don't aim low on a string jumping animal, you risk hitting above the lungs, but below the spine, but that his encounter came out okay anyway. If a deer could drop 18&quot; on a 15-20 yard shot, it should be about 5 yards left or right of same arrow at 40 yards.

If anything this example substantiates his statistics. I too have had the pleasure of seeing a deer jump the string on both videos and in real life. The couple that did it on me are very dead. They were inside of 20 yards, and I was shooting slower bows back then (one was with a recurve), but they were still hit in the vitals each time. I've seen nothing that suggests this author is significantly off in his calculations.

Edited by - Straightarrow on 01/30/2002 21:39:11

Another believer! C'mon in boys.... the water's fine......

Cyclone,

You need to take a better look at your physics book.<img src=icon_smile_dissapprove.gif border=0 align=middle>

It's falling 32' per second after the first second, 64' per second after the next second, etc.

The formula for distance for free fall from rest is distance = .5 * g * t(squared), where g = 32'/sec and t = time.

The time we are dealing with for a 20 yard shot on a 280 fps arrow is .169 seconds. Plug in the numbers and you get .425 ft/sec/ rate of fall by the time the arrow hits the deer. That's 5.1&quot; in .163 seconds, not 19.2&quot; in .05 seconds.<img src=icon_smile_approve.gif border=0 align=middle> In .05 seconds the distance of the fall would be only 1/2 inch!

No one is arguing that a quiet bow isn't important. I also hope no one is saying that a recurve or longbow will prevent them from jumping the string , because it won't. What I'm saying and the point of the article, is that if a deer jumps the string then a faster bow will make a difference. Your miss will be by a significant amount less. The examples in the article showed that the miss will be about 44% less with the two speeds compared. I don't see how you can even argue this. It is simple math and none of his figures are off.

Guys,
Like I said, this can get a little technical, but to debate whether a miss is worse at 10&quot;, or 3&quot;, it's still a miss. It seems that some guys think they actually hit where they aim 100% of the time, with no degree of error. To shoot at a deer and say it only ducked enough to change the point of impact from the heart to just under the spine, and to admit that was enough evidence to take the shot again, is at best irresponsible.

I do shoot a fast bow, with cat whiskers, lots of felt, a little teflon here and there, limb savers, and harmonic dampners in the riser(thanks Mathews), and I also have the ability and confidence to not only tune a bow, but know when it can be better and change arrows or broadheads in a few minutes to better suit my set-up. That being said though, many can't. Many are better off shooting in the 230-250 range just because it is much easier to tune. I tune many peoples bows in my garage-I don't like to, usually don't have the time, can't stand working on even my own bow, don't charge for it, and certainly don't advertise, but I feel a responsibility and most are friends. I always downplay the speed, and try to get them to shoot the most forgiving, quiet combo, regardless of speed. Most guys aren't into their archery, especially on the tuning end, as much as most of the guys on this board. Speed can be an excuse to shoot very irresponsibly, and that's the point of this post.

I've read some of Bill Winke's articles, not the one mentioned here though, and this post certainly wasn't in reference to him. Seems like a decent guy, but my personal opinion, without even reading the article, was that the article seems irresponsible, especially if it was only base on gravity and an assumption of a deer's rate of drop to a humans. AGAIN, we are not dealing with just the forces of gravity in this topic, so all the figuring and brain power is not needed.

I'm a bottom-line kind of guy, and the bottom line is: Shoot a modern bow, quiet it down the best you can, tune it the best you can or have someone help you, and don't think the speed of your bow is an excuse to take a shot at an alert deer, at ANY distance, whether it might only mean a 2&quot; miss, or a 10&quot; miss.

If that 2&quot; miss, was already of miss of 3&quot;, and you picked the wrong spot to aim at in all the excitement-then there is one thing you can say about your 5&quot; miss-it sucked, 303fps or 240 fps.

You're right though straight, I too will take 34% less error any day, but I heard someone say before-&quot;A miss is a miss&quot;-there might actually be some truth to that!

Jeff...U.P. of Michigan.



Edited by - NorthJeff on 01/31/2002 08:17:53

You are talking about the arrow dropping?

Once the arrow leaves the string it is no longer accelerating. It is carried by its momentum only. It is also acted upon by the same force of gravity that acts upon the deer as it is dropping. The two should cancel each other out and meet at the same place at the same time. We all should always hit where we are aiming, never high....(Lots of sarcasm, of course.)

Nor, I brought Bill's article into the debate. It has a lot of good info, it has some wrong. At the best he stated that a deer's reaction was unpredictable...good point...


A deer can and will, at times, drop a full 18&quot; or better and CAN duck an arrow at less than 20yds.

Figuring out how far they can drop was a miscalculation on his part, more than gravity acting here.

Getting help from a faster arrow...you might gain 1/4 to 1/2 inch advantage but cannot negate the effects of a duck until that arrow reaches the speed of sound.

The article was designed to sell speed.

BigCountry brings about a good point. All this technology with faster bows has also brought about the technology for quieter bows.

And I disagree about having a modern bow NOrjeff, yes I have one, but I also shoot a longbow. How those Indians ever killed anything is beyond me...Perhaps their physics professor was better than mine....



Edited by - cyclone on 01/31/2002 09:14:16