A deer can duck an....arrow??!!
01-30-2002, 08:10 AM
#11
Typical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Almost Heaven WV
Posts: 649
RE: A deer can duck an....arrow??!!
Straight, It was well thought out and authored. The part that was bunk was the theme that a faster rig will reduce the chances of missing because of string jump. The article was written to advertise for the faster setups. Buy! Buy! Buy!
Speed begets noise....period. The faster we yen to push that projectile, the more noise the rig will make. "For every action there is and equal and opposite reaction." Why are there all kinds of "quiet" acessories being sold?
It also said that a deer drops what? 6 inches? Well guess again author! I have videos of deer dropping 18" in less than that time! Where's your arrow at now?
The times and dropping distances were not very well researched.
The buck and doe comparisons were somewhat correct until he added the numbers. Bucks tend to be more chilled than a doe in a given situation. During the rut I wouldn't expect a jump from a buck at all unless he has you pegged or is immature. It should have been a general statement.
Hunters should stop trying to analyze the speed thing and hunt. I base my shots more on the mood of the deer. Nervous, I'm holding low..
Speed only kills on the highways.
Speed begets noise....period. The faster we yen to push that projectile, the more noise the rig will make. "For every action there is and equal and opposite reaction." Why are there all kinds of "quiet" acessories being sold?
It also said that a deer drops what? 6 inches? Well guess again author! I have videos of deer dropping 18" in less than that time! Where's your arrow at now?
The times and dropping distances were not very well researched.
The buck and doe comparisons were somewhat correct until he added the numbers. Bucks tend to be more chilled than a doe in a given situation. During the rut I wouldn't expect a jump from a buck at all unless he has you pegged or is immature. It should have been a general statement.
Hunters should stop trying to analyze the speed thing and hunt. I base my shots more on the mood of the deer. Nervous, I'm holding low..
Speed only kills on the highways.
01-30-2002, 08:34 AM
#12
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Mound MN USA
Posts: 39
RE: A deer can duck an....arrow??!!
Cyclone hit the nail on the head. Your bow could be extremly fast but it will not matter if it sounds like a rifle going off. I know of plenty people using traditional gear with slow arrow speeds that take deer every year. The key is in how quiet the setup is. Work on that and everything else will fall in place.
01-30-2002, 09:18 AM
#13
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location:
Posts: 2,413
RE: A deer can duck an....arrow??!!
Cyclone,
I got a different point out of the article. If your arrow gets to the deer much faster, then the miss will be far less. If you work the math, after the sound arrives, an arrow traveling at 280 fps will get to the deer 29% faster than one traveling 230 fps (at 20 yards). So, if with your set-up a deer jumps the string at 20 yards, a 10" miss will be only be 7.10". I don't know about you, but I'd rather miss by 7" than by 10". These numbers assume that a deer reacts instantaneously to the sound, which of course is impossible. In reality the miss would be even less because of the delay due to reaction time. If the deer jumps the string, then speed does matter.
I agree that quiet is better when trying to keep them from jumping, so the object should be to be very quiet and very fast, a combination present day bows are getting better at all the time.
As for how far they drop within 20 yards with an arrow traveling 230 fps, that's debatable, but I don't see how 18 inches is even possible. A deer would have to drop at a rate 3 to 4 times faster than the acceleration of gravity. I don't see how that's possible. The 18" miss is most likely the result of an arrow that was going to miss high and/or a bow shooting a little slower than the 230 fps and/or a deer thats a little farther out than 20 yards. Just my opinion.
I got a different point out of the article. If your arrow gets to the deer much faster, then the miss will be far less. If you work the math, after the sound arrives, an arrow traveling at 280 fps will get to the deer 29% faster than one traveling 230 fps (at 20 yards). So, if with your set-up a deer jumps the string at 20 yards, a 10" miss will be only be 7.10". I don't know about you, but I'd rather miss by 7" than by 10". These numbers assume that a deer reacts instantaneously to the sound, which of course is impossible. In reality the miss would be even less because of the delay due to reaction time. If the deer jumps the string, then speed does matter.
I agree that quiet is better when trying to keep them from jumping, so the object should be to be very quiet and very fast, a combination present day bows are getting better at all the time.
As for how far they drop within 20 yards with an arrow traveling 230 fps, that's debatable, but I don't see how 18 inches is even possible. A deer would have to drop at a rate 3 to 4 times faster than the acceleration of gravity. I don't see how that's possible. The 18" miss is most likely the result of an arrow that was going to miss high and/or a bow shooting a little slower than the 230 fps and/or a deer thats a little farther out than 20 yards. Just my opinion.
01-30-2002, 09:45 AM
#14
Typical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Almost Heaven WV
Posts: 649
RE: A deer can duck an....arrow??!!
Now, I didn't say an 18" miss. I said 18" drop. If you're holding in the middle of the torso you'd miss by 9"+ ....I'll have to break out my video at home and recalculate the numbers. Sigh....I didn't want to include numbers....
I don't take into consideration reaction time. I figure on the time it takes to drop the 18". I have a frame by frame video and know the time of each frame. Still, with that 50fps advantage and "all else being equal" a "near miss" is a miss is a miss....One stands a better chance of wounding.
I also thought that for a mechanical engineer as the author is, the assumption of some of the reaction times was cheesey to say the least.
He also doesn't take into consideration the "distance buffers" factor. The farther the shot-the less likely a severe reaction. Pop off a balloon next to an unsuspecting person's ear and try the same from 40yds out. Who jumps more? Why the more nervous person of course....
And then, of course, environmental factors..windy, crunchy, rainy...Pop that balloon during a thunderstorm.....
Read the caption under the pic at the end of the article, it pretty much contradicts much of what was written within...
I don't take into consideration reaction time. I figure on the time it takes to drop the 18". I have a frame by frame video and know the time of each frame. Still, with that 50fps advantage and "all else being equal" a "near miss" is a miss is a miss....One stands a better chance of wounding.
I also thought that for a mechanical engineer as the author is, the assumption of some of the reaction times was cheesey to say the least.
He also doesn't take into consideration the "distance buffers" factor. The farther the shot-the less likely a severe reaction. Pop off a balloon next to an unsuspecting person's ear and try the same from 40yds out. Who jumps more? Why the more nervous person of course....
And then, of course, environmental factors..windy, crunchy, rainy...Pop that balloon during a thunderstorm.....
Read the caption under the pic at the end of the article, it pretty much contradicts much of what was written within...
01-30-2002, 10:04 AM
#15
Join Date: Feb 2003
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Posts: 2,413
RE: A deer can duck an....arrow??!!
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
I also thought that for a mechanical engineer as the author is, the assumption of some of the reaction times was cheesey to say the least.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
The figure the author used for reaction time was very small. Eliminate it completely and there is little difference.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
He also doesn't take into consideration the "distance buffers" factor. The farther the shot-the less likely a severe reaction. Pop off a balloon next to an unsuspecting person's ear and try the same from 40yds out. Who jumps more? Why the more nervous person of course....<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
I don't see where any of that makes a difference. Once a deer reacts by dropping to recoil for the jump, how can he drop any faster than the acceleration of gravity?
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Read the caption under the pic at the end of the article, it pretty much contradicts much of what was written within...<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
This is the caption:
"When only close shots are taken a deer doesn't have sufficient time to react to the sound of the shot before the arrow arrives. However, at common distance around 20 yards a faster arrow definitely produces a greater likelihood for hitting the vitals when shooting at alert deer."
What he's saying is that close shots (like 5-10 yards) a slow or fast bow doesn't matter. The deer is dead if your aim is good. At 20 yards, those few inches saved by a faster bow, means the difference between hitting the vitals and just wounding the deer. Falls right in line with the article from what I can tell.
I also thought that for a mechanical engineer as the author is, the assumption of some of the reaction times was cheesey to say the least.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
The figure the author used for reaction time was very small. Eliminate it completely and there is little difference.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
He also doesn't take into consideration the "distance buffers" factor. The farther the shot-the less likely a severe reaction. Pop off a balloon next to an unsuspecting person's ear and try the same from 40yds out. Who jumps more? Why the more nervous person of course....<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
I don't see where any of that makes a difference. Once a deer reacts by dropping to recoil for the jump, how can he drop any faster than the acceleration of gravity?
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Read the caption under the pic at the end of the article, it pretty much contradicts much of what was written within...<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
This is the caption:
"When only close shots are taken a deer doesn't have sufficient time to react to the sound of the shot before the arrow arrives. However, at common distance around 20 yards a faster arrow definitely produces a greater likelihood for hitting the vitals when shooting at alert deer."
What he's saying is that close shots (like 5-10 yards) a slow or fast bow doesn't matter. The deer is dead if your aim is good. At 20 yards, those few inches saved by a faster bow, means the difference between hitting the vitals and just wounding the deer. Falls right in line with the article from what I can tell.
01-30-2002, 10:22 AM
#16
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location:
Posts: 7,571
RE: A deer can duck an....arrow??!!
I would really have to agree with Cyclone in most cases.
There are pro's and cons to having a fast bow or quiet bow.
But, my opinion is if a deer does jump the string at 25 yards, I would rather have a complete miss than a wounded animal.
StrightArrow - you keep using this gravity force as such a big piece of your puzzle and you are missing a lot. Yes, a deer can crouch faster than the force of gravity, because there is an outside source other than gravity being used namely the animals muscles.
There are pro's and cons to having a fast bow or quiet bow.
But, my opinion is if a deer does jump the string at 25 yards, I would rather have a complete miss than a wounded animal.
StrightArrow - you keep using this gravity force as such a big piece of your puzzle and you are missing a lot. Yes, a deer can crouch faster than the force of gravity, because there is an outside source other than gravity being used namely the animals muscles.
01-30-2002, 10:42 AM
#17
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location:
Posts: 2,413
RE: A deer can duck an....arrow??!!
BobCo,
I think you touched on the critical question. Can a deer fall faster than the acceleration of gravity? I understand that muscles contract rapidly, but there has to be something for the muscle to push or pull against to cause a body part to go in a particular direction. Without that, the deer's feet would simply be pulled up, in reaction to the muscle contraction. If the deer had suction cups on his feet I could fully understand the body falling faster than the accleration of gravity. However, whenever I see videos of deer dropping to jump, the animal appears to simply fall straight down. What would they be pushing off of in order to fall faster? Maybe they can fall faster than what gravity would allow, but the mechanics of it is not something I can figure. Maybe you can explain in detail how this works.
I think you touched on the critical question. Can a deer fall faster than the acceleration of gravity? I understand that muscles contract rapidly, but there has to be something for the muscle to push or pull against to cause a body part to go in a particular direction. Without that, the deer's feet would simply be pulled up, in reaction to the muscle contraction. If the deer had suction cups on his feet I could fully understand the body falling faster than the accleration of gravity. However, whenever I see videos of deer dropping to jump, the animal appears to simply fall straight down. What would they be pushing off of in order to fall faster? Maybe they can fall faster than what gravity would allow, but the mechanics of it is not something I can figure. Maybe you can explain in detail how this works.
01-30-2002, 10:44 AM
#18
Typical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: California
Posts: 600
RE: A deer can duck an....arrow??!!
I watched as a hunter using a Matthews compound producing 287fps missed a blacktailed deer, that dropped under the arrow at 12 yards. The hunter is an excellent shot and hunter and that danged deer dropped under the arrow that would have otherwise double lunged the animal. He was on the ground in a natural blind for cover. The deer was nervous and his ears focused on the hunter who was already at full draw. When he released, the deers reaction was instantaneous. The bucks body literally hit the ground and spun before the arrow struck the tree ten yards past it. I didn't read the article in Petersens, but seems the author needs to do a little more research and try that one again.
01-30-2002, 10:48 AM
#19
Typical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Almost Heaven WV
Posts: 649
RE: A deer can duck an....arrow??!!
Straight, you've got the wrong pic and caption. Look at the pic on pg. 53 where he says about shooting low.....it's right above the advertisment for the "fastest arrow on the planet"!
My bow shoots about 260fps. The arrow will make 20 yds in .231sec. Lets add say 60fps. The arrow covers the same distance in .188 sec. You say that reaction time is .05 sec? Speed is insignifigant...
BobCo got it right. There is more than just gravity acting here. When a deer drops it is rarely straight down. They push off to the side away from the sound and drop accordingly. Muscles actin here..
For that matter, if shot from a stand, your arrow is also accelerating due to gravity to some extent. This should negate the force of gravity of the drop all together. The theory is flawed....
My bow shoots about 260fps. The arrow will make 20 yds in .231sec. Lets add say 60fps. The arrow covers the same distance in .188 sec. You say that reaction time is .05 sec? Speed is insignifigant...
BobCo got it right. There is more than just gravity acting here. When a deer drops it is rarely straight down. They push off to the side away from the sound and drop accordingly. Muscles actin here..
For that matter, if shot from a stand, your arrow is also accelerating due to gravity to some extent. This should negate the force of gravity of the drop all together. The theory is flawed....
01-30-2002, 10:58 AM
#20
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
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Posts: 7,571
RE: A deer can duck an....arrow??!!
Without going back to my advanced physics books, lease don't make pull them out.
Take and object in one hand and hold it a shoulder height with your arm straight out. Now hold the arm with nothing in stright out so that both arms are a shoulder height, one with an object in it. Now drop the object and at the same time pull the arm with nothing in it down as fast as you can. I'll bet the arm with nothing in it can move faster the the object everytime. Oh, you can use whatever arrowdynamic object that you want to.
Now jet compare the fast twitch muscle fiber in a human to a deer, which one do you suppose is faster. I'll let you figure that one out.
Now you mentioned suction cups on a deers feet (they are really called hooves). Now I know that deer do not have suction cups. But, God has supplied them with hooves which really do give them some really good balance and footing (or should I call it hooving LOL). And they can "dig in" when needed. So there is another force acting on them besides gravity (unless deer can fly or are suspended above the ground for some reason), namely the force of their muscles.
Take and object in one hand and hold it a shoulder height with your arm straight out. Now hold the arm with nothing in stright out so that both arms are a shoulder height, one with an object in it. Now drop the object and at the same time pull the arm with nothing in it down as fast as you can. I'll bet the arm with nothing in it can move faster the the object everytime. Oh, you can use whatever arrowdynamic object that you want to.
Now jet compare the fast twitch muscle fiber in a human to a deer, which one do you suppose is faster. I'll let you figure that one out.
Now you mentioned suction cups on a deers feet (they are really called hooves). Now I know that deer do not have suction cups. But, God has supplied them with hooves which really do give them some really good balance and footing (or should I call it hooving LOL). And they can "dig in" when needed. So there is another force acting on them besides gravity (unless deer can fly or are suspended above the ground for some reason), namely the force of their muscles.