Shot placement on animal A - a detailed look
 

Thanks to 55recurve - he'll expand on this post later ...

This was the shot ...

RE: Shot placement on animal A - a detailed look
 

Again, I shoot a longbow, so I would not take this shot, as it is given , and this is your shot. This isn't a wait and it'll get better, this is a would you take this shot, as its given, last day of the hunt.

I wouldn't. Why ? 3 or 4 inches one way or the other and I hit A)shoulder bone or B) one lung or no lung and guts. Its a killing shot, but the chances of not finding the deer are high IMO. Entry wound with arrow sticking out of it gives no blood trail, angled shot that hits guts leave little in the way of blood trails (guts plus the exit hole). Neck shots I would never take anyway. I would not take this shot and if another didn't present iteself, I would not fill my tag.

Edited by - stealthycat on 01/30/2002 08:02:04

RE: Shot placement on animal A - a detailed look
 

I don't know how detailed these are, and how accurate, but here goes.
The green dots=possible shot placement.
Blue dots=If you wanted to make a really crazy neck shot, Suggest using a rifle, although a compound would work.
With the pictured that Stealthy cat so greatly posted after my asking for them(thanks Stealth), I came up with these pictures. These pictures with the scribble all over them represent where I beleive organ's may be and also the bone's position. Now on a broadside shot the organ's would sit further back, but with the shifting of the body, and this is just my theory, the organs are shifted foward.
I have made a shot at almost this exact angle, turned 180 degree's and was very successful right down to no tracking job needed.
When the animal is quartering towards you, it closes off shots that would be placed behind the shoulder, do to the angle and bone mass covering the shot area, so my thought would be to place the shot in front of the shoulder and have it angle through, possibly hitting the shoulder on the other side, but passthroughs are not always needed for clean kills, I would think a passthrough would make a tracking job easier though.
From the shift and shooting in front of the leg and shoulder, I beleive there would be vital organ open and easy to hit, this is of course with a compound and being very well practiced and only shooting 15-20metres or yards. The Deer's lower leg bone, is very well massed to hold it's weight with low amounts of muscle I would pressume. The upper leg bone that attaches to the shoulderblade doesn't have quite the bone mass as the lower leg does, reason's I beleive are because the muscle act's as a stabilizer and lessens the need for larger bone mass.
Now lets say you place a shot in the green dot area's, possibilities for lungs, major arteries and even a possible heart shot, if the heart is not covered by the very tough leg joint. Even a shot behind the shoulder may still be useable, although I would rather take a shot in front or the leg, because the angle is much better for lungs to be open. As for bone mass on shot's in front of the leg, if we are well studied in deer, or animal anatomy, not saying that I am, but I would like to be.
We would know where the bone's are at every angle of deer movement, we would know where the organ's are and how to make a shot accordingly. I don't know if I can go into much more detail, but I have made this shot on a 250# bear with alot of muscle and bone mass and would more then likely take the shot at this or any other deer at this angle, if in my mind I knew it would be lethal, and fast acting. Which I beleive it could and would be.
Now let the thrashing begin, give your idea's critisms on what I have just posted " Dylan's theory of shot placement". LOL. Good shooting.
Dylan

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RE: Shot placement on animal A - a detailed look
 

With a long bow or recurve I wouldnt shoot. With my compound or rifle, Heck ya. If I only had a long or recurve bow I would jump on him and bite his throat or something, I mean, holly molly saphire batman thats a beaut..

RE: Shot placement on animal A - a detailed look
 

20 feet up a tree?.......This picture does you no good whatsoever.
This is a near eye level shot.....if you are 20 feet up and this close you have all sorts of crazy variables and angles to think about, not to mention that big fatty rack getting in the way!
If you are shooting down from that height, the shoulder blade now protects a lot more vital than this picture shows.....the lower green dots no longer become shot options. The only one that seems to still be a viable option is the green dot tucked into the "V" at the base of the shoulder blade where the leg then angles backwards.....and that's a pretty small target.
You actually did a pretty good job of showing the location of things.....it just looks a whole lot different from that high up.
There's just too much bad stuff to potentially hit with that shot.......It CAN be done;spine,tuck one in behind the shoulder, but that's about it unless you get lucky and catch a major blood vessel along the spine.
If that truly was the only opportunity, it would just about send me into a mental hospital but I'd have to pass.......Believe me I'd be thinking about it though.

But in reality.....if this was your only chance you wouldn't know it until it was too late. Basically the decision to pass wouldn't even have to be made, because I probably wouldn't even have the bow drawn yet!

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RE: Shot placement on animal A - a detailed look
 

Pretty risky...I'd still pass. I shoot a 55#recurve, and it sure as heck ain't passing through that shoulder bone.

RE: Shot placement on animal A - a detailed look
 

WITH A COMPOUND BOW OR A RIFLE I WOULD TAKE THE SHOT I DON'T SHOOT THE LONGBOW. BUT THANKS FOR THE PICS. AND THE STORY

RE: Shot placement on animal A - a detailed look
 

Something like MattPa said, that pic is not a representation of being 20 feet up in a tree. 20 feet up in a tree angles are changed. I would not hesitate in taking that shot with my compound.

RE: Shot placement on animal A - a detailed look
 

It doesnt matter if im on the ground, or 20 ft in the air. I would NOT take this shot with A bow. Could this shot be made??? Heck yes. Are there alot of things that can happen??? YES. I dont care if its the first day, the last day, or how big the deer is. Im not taking.

If im gun hunting i wouldnt even think about it. The trigger was already pulled.........

RE: Shot placement on animal A - a detailed look
 

definately a shot with a compound shooting 300fps but with a slower arrow speed and the buck staring directly at you he could easily duck or jump the shot leaving you with a wounded but not fatal shot

RE: Shot placement on animal A - a detailed look
 

But you can darn sure bet I'd be at full draw so as soon as he turned at all........------->

RE: Shot placement on animal A - a detailed look
 

If you're 20 feet up in the tree, the deer is on a 15 foot hump. Get 20 feet up and another thing would come into play at that distance. All that bone he's got on top is going to be right in the way. You have to wait for him to turn. Of course the little 4, 6 and 8 pointers I get you don't have those concerns.<img src=icon_smile_sad.gif border=0 align=middle>

RE: Shot placement on animal A - a detailed look
 

My 54# longbow with an arrow weighing in at 575g is more than a match for bone and muscle in a deer, however at the angle he's offering me and his state of alert at that moment, my tag don't get filled. The bow delivers the heavy arrow a lot slower than 300fps, that's for sure, lol, but no matter how fast the arrow gets to him, it isn't fast enough if he decides to drop or even just sway a few inches, making an otherwise lethal shot into a wounded and lost animal. Now, if that bubba decides to calm down and turns a bit, he's hangin from a meat pole.<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

RE: Shot placement on animal A - a detailed look
 

I don't recal saying 20 feet in a tree? I figured this was more of a ground shot, maybe 8' in a tree at the most. For argument's sake, lets say that he hasn't saw you and you are at full draw. The bear I shot at this angle was looking directly at me, and I wasn't shooting a very fast bow. All I know is he was dead before I could gather my thoughts. <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
Dylan

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RE: Shot placement on animal A - a detailed look
 

I'm with Don K 100% on this. I'm passing.

RE: Shot placement on animal A - a detailed look
 

I would not take this shot.
Can it be done?....sure, it is not a high percentage shot, though.
Besides, I`m at least 25' up a tree, and he is gonna give me a much better angle than this! I HOPE! If not, tommorrow is another day.

RE: Shot placement on animal A - a detailed look
 

My bad guys - I just edited that &quot;20 feet up in a tree&quot;

As this shot is, I would not take it. Like I said (and benchleg attests to) this shot can be made, but is it a good practical shot ? No, I don't think it is. If its all about the arrows maybe hitting where they're aimed, and the animal maybe dying within a reasonable distance, then I am wrong about bowhunters.

RE: Shot placement on animal A - a detailed look
 

Well this is a pretty neat discussion. Some feel from a tree the angle is better, some feel it is worse. Personally, from a tree, I will take this shot and have done so successfully. As the picture stands though, I would still take the shot aiming about 2&quot; right, and 2&quot; high of that little tuft of fur on his shoulder.

RE: Shot placement on animal A - a detailed look
 

nidaohscott,Even shooting 300 ft a second the deer could duck the arrow,if it is fully alert.

RE: Shot placement on animal A - a detailed look
 

First, as I have previously stated, I would not shoot at this deer. I would only shoot at a deer that exposes it's lungs, unobstructied. As stealthy has said, the arrow, may or may not hit where you aim anyways.

I'm going to get it for this, I'm sure. But, for those of you who are willing to take a crack at this deer - and that is all it really is. What is your reasoning for not shooting at it's liver? It's wide open. I would say that it would be easier to hit and have a pass through then taking a crack at the lungs.

I'm eagerly awaiting your response.

RE: Shot placement on animal A - a detailed look
 

i would have to pass. it would kill me if i wounded him and could not find him. but he would not have to turn much before i let him have it.

RE: Shot placement on animal A - a detailed look
 

Come on - to the people who would shoot at this deer. I am eagerly waiting for a response to my question (a couple of posts up).

RE: Shot placement on animal A - a detailed look
 

Only with a rifle.

Why not shoot at it's liver??? For one. The deer has you pegged. Game over. Second, I'm not exactly shure I want to chase a liver shot deer through that brush and pines he's hanging out in...too easy to loos the blood trail. Third, the liver isn't that big of a target, especialy when the buck had you dead to rights. Bad judgement of a few inches at that angle and BLAM-O...GUTS!!! Then you have a job ahead of you!!!

I would wait. Maybe never kill that deer. But I wouldn't wound it and never find it either. :)

John

RE: Shot placement on animal A - a detailed look
 

Eager BOBCO...

While a liver shot is most definetly leathal, it isn't usaully humane. The paunch will be punctured. Thus, the liver and most likely the stomach and some intestines will be hit. The stomach contents and intestines will clog the entrance and exit holes resulting in a poor(if evident) blood trail. The most vital organs will still function long enough to get this deer into the next county.

Personally, I would take this shot. From my experiences, the shoulder blade is shown too large. Also it seems to be too far back at the top & too far forward at the bottom....that's just my opinion.

This deer is quartering perfectly. I would put my pin about where the back green dot is shown. That carbon will drive all the way thru....and the blood trail will be short.

Take a look at this elk anatomy. I couldn't find a whitetail soon enough for my liking.

http://www.nbef.org/pdfs/elkshotplacement.pdf

RE: Shot placement on animal A - a detailed look
 

Took a shot like this at a real nice 8 point 26 years ago. Shot too far back and found him 3 weeks later. I was sick. Even though I have 26 years more experiance now at shooting a bow, I still wouldn't take that shot again. Since then, it's been broadside or quartering away.

RE: Shot placement on animal A - a detailed look
 

I passed this shot up during the rut in Nov. at 35 yds. and took the shot in Jan. on the last day of the IL season. The 159 gross 13pt. buck went almost 200 yds. and I heard it go down. There was no chance of the shot angle getting better so I took it at 30 yds. from 16-18 feet up. It caught the last few ribs, one lung, the liver, the stomach, and the guts did come out the exit wound and the blood trail was very poor until the end. The buck should net in the 140s and was dead within 60 sec. of the shot. The shot actually knocked him down in his tracks. But he got up and ran off. If I knew how to post a pic. I would. I used a 100 gr. Spitfire and 300 Carbon Express arrows with Bowman bow.

RE: Shot placement on animal A - a detailed look
 

Jason N. I appreciate the time you took to answer my question. But in a way it was not intended to you since you stated that you would not take the shot anyway.

I understand that the liver shot is not a humane shot and that the deer would suffer a lot. It would never be a shot that I would take. It is, however lethal.

However, my question was directed to one of those people who were furiously agued that this shot (around the shoulder blade) was a very worthy shot. And to me, that was not a very humane shot either.

This is not to say a person does not have the accuracy to put the arrow where it needs to be. Heck I could put the arrow where it needs to be. But there are always more factors working than just myself and my accuracy.

I also know that if I took this shot I would be HOPING for a kill instead of knowing.

So, I guess my question is to the people who would not hesitate to shoot near the shoulder - Why not take a crack at the liver? To me it would be an easier and less risky shot. I want to know how people think. And I am not trying to judge or condenm anyone for doing this.

Just looking for answers thats all.

RE: Shot placement on animal A - a detailed look
 

Big Bob - You send me that picture and I'll have it posted in a jiffy ...

BobCo19-65 - We have similar thoughts on this shot. Factor in how long you've been on your stand, how nervous you are, how much have you practiced lately (easy to forget to do that during hunting season) etc and theres a lot of room for error on this shot.

I posted this on the LW and was surprised at the number of recurve/longbow hunters who would take this shot. To play the other side though, one guy stated

&quot; Stealthycat, I would have to check my journal to be sure but I will estimate. I know of three from the ground. I estimate another six to nine from a tree at that angle. I got one cow elk at that angle but not as steep at the photo. I lost one doe on a frontal angle but it was cause I shot low and hit the shoulder joint itself. The arrow did not penetrate even past the broadhead and fell immediately out. I felt bad but the deer absolutely recovered IMO. The problem was that I shot too low not the angle. At under ten yards given the angle in the photo, that big boy goes on the wall. I shoot a 62# Widow recurve with WW broadheads on carbons. Penetration has never been a problem in over five dozen kills. Hope this helps and like I said I don't claim to be super hunter here. &quot;

Now, its obvious with those stats that maybe I and those against this shot are underestimating our bows ? I dunno, I just don't want to take chances, and for me, this is a chancy shot. Every shot is, but broadside and I miss high or low, quartering away, well, theres a LOT of good things to say about that shot, most important is the lack of bone structure to penetrate.

I wonder - does anyone not agree that a broadside and quartering away shot is better than a quartering to shot angle like this one ?

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I know what you're saying BobCO. I do however, think this is a viable shot. The whole point I was trying to make is the sketched bone structure isn't accurate. The structure looks alot different....that's why I posted that link. Check it out, I think you'll see what I mean.

http://www.nbef.org/pdfs/elkshotplacement.pdf

RE: Shot placement on animal A - a detailed look
 

Jason N - Your link says at the end of the document ..

&quot; Remember!
Centerfire rifle hunters can shoot animals quartering toward them or facing head-on. <u>Bow and muzzleloader hunters should never attempt
these shots.</u> Rear-end shots should be passed up by all hunters.&quot;

What was your point again ??

RE: Shot placement on animal A - a detailed look
 

Took me a while but I am finally around to answering. If you can put the arrow where you want taking the liver shot or the lung theoretically shouldn't matter. Personally I choose the lung shot cause I know it works and feel more comfortable. There may be more room at the liver, but the familiarity and comfort is there for the lung shot. At least that's my feelings.

RE: Shot placement on animal A - a detailed look
 

Stealthy,After reading that you posted this on the LW I went there to check out what type of reponses you were getting.I was shocked at the number of Trad hunters there that said they would take this shot.in fact 34% of the guys there said they would take it.That is about the same as the compound shooters isn't it?

How do you feel about the statements you made like this one?

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>With a recurve or longbow, I don't think 1 out of 100 would - they would wait <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>

and this one
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Using high tech equipment, bone busting head, high KE bows make people think they can take a marginal shot. No or yes ?
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>

Are you a little more then surprised to find out how many trad. shooters would take a shot that many feel is marginal?

Edited by - Charlie P on 01/31/2002 14:19:04

RE: Shot placement on animal A - a detailed look
 

My point was that if the anatomy is shown correctly, not as much of the vitals are covered. I would take this shot. I'm confident that I could place and arrow through at least one lung and the liver....possibly both lungs.

If it were an actual situation....I would wait for a better shot. This deer looks like it's walking or is about to move his right front leg forward. This will increase my good shot odds. He doesn't look spooked either.

In all actuallity, I'd probably fall apart and not be able to draw my bow on a deer of that caliber! That isn't exactly commonplace in PA.

RE: Shot placement on animal A - a detailed look
 

I just checked out the poll that you did here it was a little tougher to get an exact number.Some guys didn't post what they shot and some shot both,but it ended up that 42% of the people here would take the shot.

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RE: Shot placement on animal A - a detailed look
 

I took virtually this exact shot with my compound back in 1984-relatively slow bow. The arrow entered quartering in just in front of the shoulder but at time of impact did not appear to penetrate far enough for a good clean kill. When the deer was recovered the arrow was broke off but had penetrated the heart. I believe the deer pushed the arrow far enough for a leathel shot by running it into a tree as he ran off. The buck had an inside spread of 28&quot; plus. All things considered I WOULD NOT take this shot again. At the time I was brand new to archery and did not realize the risk envolved with taking this shot. I don't believe this is an ethical shot even though I was fortunate enough to recover the animal.

RE: Shot placement on animal A - a detailed look
 

With a recurve or longbow, I don't think 1 out of 100 would - they would wait

I was wrong, wasn't I ? I was VERY surprised by the response on the LeatherWall. That one guys made some good arguments for taking this quartering to shot. The last reply on this thread there was &quot; The results of about 3/4 of my dozen or so experiences with that type of shot (my bloodtrails and others') made me start to pass them up. I dislike long, dwindling bloodtrails. 'Specially when I think it was a sorry excuse to shoot. &quot;

I have always understood it to be a poor shot, and personally (and I have said this) even though its a good killing shot most of the time, I think its a high percentage for lost animal shot, which is exactly what this guy is saying too.

I think this topic is VERY important. It shows that about half would absolutely NOT take this shot. The other half would but almost all agree its not a perfect shot. I'm thinking a little deeper on this as well, but still would not take this shot. Why ? I cannot make this shot with my longbow all the time. I cannot gaurantee a clean kill. We've seen the posts here on a few who have lost deer with this shot - what does that say ?

NBEF says don't take the shot too, so whos right and whos wrong ? Is the shot a good one or isn't it ? I don't see how it can really be both ways with archery equipment.

RE: Shot placement on animal A - a detailed look
 

kansaswiderack, I admire you're candor and honesty.

I would not hesitate to pass on this shot. For one I think the odds of the deer jumping are very high, but most of all the angle can only be described as poor.

I wonder how many would take that same shot at a doe or a junk buck. I can't help but think that sometimes the rack on buck's head distorts the thinking in the hunter's head.