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08-20-2003, 12:00 PM
#91
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Warren PA USA
Posts: 1,512
RE: Rumors of Let-off % being revisted by P&Y
I don' t really think it' s a fair comparison to put 80% compounds against crossbows. The differences are the same as a 65% bow....maybe a few pounds difference. Compounds aren' t: cocked, mounted on a rifle stock and ready to fire. Compounds don' t have a saftey switch or trigger assembly.....most hunting bows don' t have telescopic sights on them either. Whether you are holding 20% or 50% doesn' t make a lick of difference when you compare it to holding nothing. I won' t bite on the crossbow issue until you give me documented proof of P&Y' s statement saying such. I know they don' t want crossbows in our bow seasons, but that certainly doesn' t translate into no 80% compound bows. I don' t see how it paves the way either.
08-20-2003, 12:24 PM
#92
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 9,175
RE: Rumors of Let-off % being revisted by P&Y
The whole point was to maintain a clear and demonstrable difference between bows and crossbows. If you' re using a 50 pound, 80% letoff bow, the holding weight is 10 pounds. I don' t know about you, but I could hold that back for a LONG time. Bump that up to 90% and you' re holding 5 pounds. If one of the main arguments against crossbows is that they don' t have to be drawn in the immediate presence of game, then you' re sunk with 80% letoff because they don' t have to be drawing in the immediate presence of game either.
Whether you draw while the animal is out of range and coming in and hold till you get the shot, or whether you draw while the animal is walking behind a bush and hold till the shot, you are NOT drawing in the immediate presence of game.
If you don' t draw when the shot is presented, then you are using your compound exactly LIKE you would use a crossbow, with the only exceptions being the shoulder stock and a somewhat reduced field of fire.
By the way, 65% letoff on that 50 pound bow would be 17 1/2 pounds. Considerably more than ' a few ounces.' You guys shooting 70 pounds, the difference would be 14 pounds vs 24 1/2 pounds. Let' s be honest about what that extra percentage of letoff really is.
And before someone else says it, yes, most of us draw into the stops anyway and being into the stops is being into the stops whether we' re talking 90% or 50%. But we don' t HOLD against the stops, now do we... We pull into the stops only when executing the shot.
Whether you draw while the animal is out of range and coming in and hold till you get the shot, or whether you draw while the animal is walking behind a bush and hold till the shot, you are NOT drawing in the immediate presence of game.
If you don' t draw when the shot is presented, then you are using your compound exactly LIKE you would use a crossbow, with the only exceptions being the shoulder stock and a somewhat reduced field of fire.
By the way, 65% letoff on that 50 pound bow would be 17 1/2 pounds. Considerably more than ' a few ounces.' You guys shooting 70 pounds, the difference would be 14 pounds vs 24 1/2 pounds. Let' s be honest about what that extra percentage of letoff really is.
And before someone else says it, yes, most of us draw into the stops anyway and being into the stops is being into the stops whether we' re talking 90% or 50%. But we don' t HOLD against the stops, now do we... We pull into the stops only when executing the shot.
08-20-2003, 01:33 PM
#93
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Warren PA USA
Posts: 1,512
RE: Rumors of Let-off % being revisted by P&Y
Whether you draw while the animal is out of range and coming in and hold till you get the shot, or whether you draw while the animal is walking behind a bush and hold till the shot, you are NOT drawing in the immediate presence of game.
If one of the main arguments against crossbows is that they don' t have to be drawn in the immediate presence of game, then you' re sunk with 80% letoff because they don' t have to be drawing in the immediate presence of game either.
08-20-2003, 02:27 PM
#94
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 10
RE: Rumors of Let-off % being revisted by P&Y
I have viewed this thread over the past couple days and I have my take on the subject, which I will state later.
I pose this question.
Why not do away with the let-off rule. No limitation period.
If your going to change the rule then change it for a permanent fix so know one can complain. Opps sorry I forgot, that is an impossible proposition. You cannot please everyone. Don' t mean to offend with that statement, just stating the bitter truth.
If you are a member of Pope and Young do you support their goals and beliefs? If so why did so many people vote against the 65% let-off rule? Do those individuals already use equipment that does not meet criteria? If you change or do away with the rule does it increase the membership of Pope and Young?
I have to ask what is the underlying reasons for the big squable? With that I say if you want it " YOUR" way then do what you have to so that you can vote on the issue.
I pose this question.
Why not do away with the let-off rule. No limitation period.
If your going to change the rule then change it for a permanent fix so know one can complain. Opps sorry I forgot, that is an impossible proposition. You cannot please everyone. Don' t mean to offend with that statement, just stating the bitter truth.
If you are a member of Pope and Young do you support their goals and beliefs? If so why did so many people vote against the 65% let-off rule? Do those individuals already use equipment that does not meet criteria? If you change or do away with the rule does it increase the membership of Pope and Young?
I have to ask what is the underlying reasons for the big squable? With that I say if you want it " YOUR" way then do what you have to so that you can vote on the issue.
08-20-2003, 02:58 PM
#96
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 9,175
RE: Rumors of Let-off % being revisted by P&Y
For those of you professing some arrogance of purity because you shoot a little less let-off.....then your in the wrong forum, you should be in the traditional forum......
08-20-2003, 03:19 PM
#97
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: VA, USA
Posts: 3,116
RE: Rumors of Let-off % being revisted by P&Y
This is copied & pasted from Pope & Young' s website:
Definition of a Hunting Bow, Arrow, and Broadhead
I. Hunting Bow
A. A hunting bow for big game shall be a longbow, flat bow, recurve bow, compound bow or any combination of these designs meeting the following requirements and restrictions:
1. A device for launching an arrow, which derives its propulsive energy solely from the bending and recovery of two limbs.
2. The bow must be hand drawn by a single and direct, uninterrupted pulling action of the shooter. The bowstring must be moved from brace height to the full draw position by the muscle power of the shooter’s body. The energy used to propel the arrow shall not be derived from any other source such as hydraulic, pneumatic, mechanical or similar devices. These limitations shall not exclude the mechanical leverage advantage provided by eccentric wheels or cams so long as the available energy stored in the bent limbs of the bow is the sole result of a single, continuous, and direct pulling effort by the shooter.
3. The bow must be hand-held. One hand shall hold the bow and the other hand draw the bowstring. The bowstring must be moved and/or held at all points in the draw cycle entirely by the muscle power of the shooter until release. The bowstring must be released as a direct and conscious action of the shooter’s eiter relaxing the tension of the fingers or triggering the release action of a hand-held release aid.
4. The bow shall be no shorter than 30 inches.
B. Exceptions: Physically handicapped bowhunters shall be excepted from the requirements of holding or shooting the bow with their hands.
C. Exclusions:
1. The following shall not be considered a hunting bow:
a. A crossbow.
b. Any device with a gun-type stock or incorporating any device or mechanism that holds the bowstring at partial or full draw without the shooter’s muscle power.
c. Electronic or battery-powered devices shall not be attached to a hunting bow.
d. No portion of the bow’s riser (handle) or any track, trough, channel or other device that attaches directly to the bow’s riser shall contact, support, and/or guide the arrow from a point rearward of the bow’s brace height.
D. Let-Off for Compound Bows:
1. Definition of let-off: That characteristic of a bow that results in a reduction of the force necessary to increase the draw length after the highest level of draw force has been reached. This is characteristic generally associated with, but not restriced to, compound bows.
2. The maximum let-off on a compound bow shall be measured at a point in the draw cycle after the peak draw weight has been attained. It shall be measured near the end of the draw cycle where the minimum holding force is reached. This point in the draw cycle on a compound bow is known as " the bottom of the valley."
3. Determination of the percent of let-off: The values of the peak draw force and the let-off force shall be used to calculate the percent of let-off. The peak force is the maximum force obtained during the draw cycle. The let-off force is the lowest force reached following the peak force during a single uninterrupted draw cycle. In all cases, both the highest and lowest force shall be read from a scale during a single and continual pull condition, without relaxation. This technique eliminates the introduction of hysteresis, which can distort the reading.
% Let-off = 100 X [(Peak Draw Force) - (Minimum Holding Force)] / (Peak Draw Force)
4. The nominal percent of let-off for hunting bows shall be a maximum of 65 percent. It is recognized that variations in draw length and/or draw weight can affect the percent of let-off on compound bows. For these reasons minor variations in let-off are acceptable.
As you can see, the argument that 65% letoff was purely to keep the cross bows out is wrong.......a compound bow is clearly defined here..... IMO the 65% rule is there because they want it to be there for some reason or another. Once again I shoot a bow at 65% letoff, so I' m ok with it, I just do not think moving the let off to 80% is going to give another hunter an unfair advantage.
Here' s the link to P&Y where I got this info at: http://www.pope-young.org/
Definition of a Hunting Bow, Arrow, and Broadhead
I. Hunting Bow
A. A hunting bow for big game shall be a longbow, flat bow, recurve bow, compound bow or any combination of these designs meeting the following requirements and restrictions:
1. A device for launching an arrow, which derives its propulsive energy solely from the bending and recovery of two limbs.
2. The bow must be hand drawn by a single and direct, uninterrupted pulling action of the shooter. The bowstring must be moved from brace height to the full draw position by the muscle power of the shooter’s body. The energy used to propel the arrow shall not be derived from any other source such as hydraulic, pneumatic, mechanical or similar devices. These limitations shall not exclude the mechanical leverage advantage provided by eccentric wheels or cams so long as the available energy stored in the bent limbs of the bow is the sole result of a single, continuous, and direct pulling effort by the shooter.
3. The bow must be hand-held. One hand shall hold the bow and the other hand draw the bowstring. The bowstring must be moved and/or held at all points in the draw cycle entirely by the muscle power of the shooter until release. The bowstring must be released as a direct and conscious action of the shooter’s eiter relaxing the tension of the fingers or triggering the release action of a hand-held release aid.
4. The bow shall be no shorter than 30 inches.
B. Exceptions: Physically handicapped bowhunters shall be excepted from the requirements of holding or shooting the bow with their hands.
C. Exclusions:
1. The following shall not be considered a hunting bow:
a. A crossbow.
b. Any device with a gun-type stock or incorporating any device or mechanism that holds the bowstring at partial or full draw without the shooter’s muscle power.
c. Electronic or battery-powered devices shall not be attached to a hunting bow.
d. No portion of the bow’s riser (handle) or any track, trough, channel or other device that attaches directly to the bow’s riser shall contact, support, and/or guide the arrow from a point rearward of the bow’s brace height.
D. Let-Off for Compound Bows:
1. Definition of let-off: That characteristic of a bow that results in a reduction of the force necessary to increase the draw length after the highest level of draw force has been reached. This is characteristic generally associated with, but not restriced to, compound bows.
2. The maximum let-off on a compound bow shall be measured at a point in the draw cycle after the peak draw weight has been attained. It shall be measured near the end of the draw cycle where the minimum holding force is reached. This point in the draw cycle on a compound bow is known as " the bottom of the valley."
3. Determination of the percent of let-off: The values of the peak draw force and the let-off force shall be used to calculate the percent of let-off. The peak force is the maximum force obtained during the draw cycle. The let-off force is the lowest force reached following the peak force during a single uninterrupted draw cycle. In all cases, both the highest and lowest force shall be read from a scale during a single and continual pull condition, without relaxation. This technique eliminates the introduction of hysteresis, which can distort the reading.
% Let-off = 100 X [(Peak Draw Force) - (Minimum Holding Force)] / (Peak Draw Force)
4. The nominal percent of let-off for hunting bows shall be a maximum of 65 percent. It is recognized that variations in draw length and/or draw weight can affect the percent of let-off on compound bows. For these reasons minor variations in let-off are acceptable.
As you can see, the argument that 65% letoff was purely to keep the cross bows out is wrong.......a compound bow is clearly defined here..... IMO the 65% rule is there because they want it to be there for some reason or another. Once again I shoot a bow at 65% letoff, so I' m ok with it, I just do not think moving the let off to 80% is going to give another hunter an unfair advantage.
Here' s the link to P&Y where I got this info at: http://www.pope-young.org/
08-20-2003, 03:29 PM
#98
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 9,175
RE: Rumors of Let-off % being revisted by P&Y
VAhunter, you' re jumping to some erroneous conclusions again.
Some while back in this mess, I referenced an article in the ' Fifth Edition of Bowhunting Records of North American Big Game' , P&Y' s official ' book.' That article lays it out very clearly that the crossbow is exactly what the 65% rule is all about. It was written by Dave Holt and is entitled " Bowhunting Equipment and Restrictions." Maybe you should check and see if your local library has it on hand so you can read it for yourself.
Some while back in this mess, I referenced an article in the ' Fifth Edition of Bowhunting Records of North American Big Game' , P&Y' s official ' book.' That article lays it out very clearly that the crossbow is exactly what the 65% rule is all about. It was written by Dave Holt and is entitled " Bowhunting Equipment and Restrictions." Maybe you should check and see if your local library has it on hand so you can read it for yourself.
08-20-2003, 03:55 PM
#99
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: VA, USA
Posts: 3,116
RE: Rumors of Let-off % being revisted by P&Y
What erroneous conclusions did I come up with before? Anyway, I will check outmy local library for the book, but the fact still remains, if they changed the letoff rule, according to their own definition of a hunting bow, a bow could have 99% let off(i' m not advocating this) and still be considered a hunting bow. Furthermore, in their own definition of letoff % they clearly state that minor variations in the 65% letoff rule are allowed due to " variations in draw length and/or draw weight can affect the percent of let-off on compound bows. For these reasons minor variations in let-off are acceptable."
What is the acceptable " minor" variation? 66%, 67.6%....who knows?
What is the acceptable " minor" variation? 66%, 67.6%....who knows?