If BH is the all-forgiving feature in a bow, can someone explain to many of my tournament shooters how they can possibly win so many times with 6 1/4" BH bows?

The need for BH is many times for the forgiveness of hitting your arm or clothing. Many can shoot lesser BH very effectively.

I' m not saying that you shouldn' t strive for higher BH; but, please understand that it may cause you to give up other features and may also get you features that you don' t need.

Len,
I did not mean to imply that it is that simple, just using that as an example to explain how brace height, power stroke and draw length relate to each other. I completely agree that when the engineers set down to design a new bow they do not merely increase or decrease brace height to change bow design, but they consider all factors and design accordingly. But, if they (the engineers) chose too they could pop in a more reflexed riser with matching length and limb pocket angles and that would in effect reduce brace height. At the same time though that would decrease the draw length of " that bow" , but it would not decrease " your" draw length. You would however need to change cam design or modules to increase the draw length of " that bow" to match " your" draw length. Once this has been done then the above scenerio I mentioned before would come into play.


PA and Len,
I haven' t taken any of the posts in an arguable way, just friendly discussion.

Oh, I almost forgot. Since we were discussing the time and distance factor, I have been thinking. They either one could be used to determine the amount of energy transfered to the arrow. It would be dependent upon how they chose to measure the force exerted by the limbs/string. The energy is initially transfered from the limbs to the string then to the arrow. If they chose to measure this energy with a factor of time such as ... the bow delivers X amount of energy to the arrow over Y amount of time from release at full draw. And no I don' t believe this energy transfer would be equally transfered over the full power stroke. Sort of a curve like a draw force curve. If they measured it this way, and they could, then you would calculate the energy using the time the arrow remained on the string from full draw to brace height.
But, as you stated, since everything else is calculated using factors of distance then I am sure when ever they plot the amount of energy transfer they plot it against distance of power stroke, and I think the plot would still look something like a draw force curve.

Hobbes:

I just wanted to clarify the technicalities when discussing this subject. We have a lot of people who ' lurk' and glean the information that we provide. They usually accept a lot of what is said, but not questioning too much of it. You were putting it in very simple terms that could have lead to misinterpretation. Thanks for bearing with me on the clarification.

As far as the forces transmitted to the arrow, there are a lot of opinions and some have documented theirs. I believe the measurement should be made from the full draw position to the ' release' of the arrow from the string, rather than the brace height; since, the string is still in motion after it reaches BH with it' s weight and speed. This, however, would be a minor amount of energy and may fall into a ' who cares' category. Something else that affects how much force gets to the arrow over time and distance is drag. I' ve seen where one cam on a two cam bow is not moving as fast (drag) and subsequently affects the nock travel. This can have a detrimental effect on energy transfer.

If I could take a guess, you have an engineering background?

Thanks for coming on board and sharing your insight. Please, ask away and participate. It keeps my brain functioning.

Len,
I normally try to not make it a point to tell everyone about the engineering thing. Although I am in no way an expert, I have also participated in PSE' s tech training. The combo of the two make me just dangerous enough to put my foot in my mouth by speaking faster than I think.

You all are great....thanks for all the info. Actually it' s too much for me right now. Don' t get me wrong, I love reading everything everyone is writing, but I' m soo new to this archery thing.....well I don' t get it all yet. I mentioned , in a previous post, that my draw length is 30-31" ....talked to the guy at " the bow shop" and he(by just looking at me) said there is no way you have a 30" draw length. Later, I measured my arrows, they measure 31" . Still not sure what my draw length is but I think I' m gonna have to trust this guy..I believe he knows what he' s talking about. I figure, I' ll buy a bow and let him " set me up" , I' ll check in with you all if I question his advice and I' ll learn how to do this thing that I dig. I can' t imagine buying a bow (a 2002 or newwer model) and being worse off, than hunting another season with this old bow. It' s long, did I mention old, and heavy....oh, and it' s top heavy.....needs a heavy stabilizer (or an extention). I think I' ve made a desition on a bow......still a Diamond.....but a little longer...Diamond Hornet. 30.5" axile to axile, brace is 7.5" , and only weighs 3.2 lbs. It felt great in the shop, and I' ll get it at a discount..2002 model, so he' s marking it down. I' ll save around a hundred bucks and I' ll do what the guy says....and I should be better off this deer season..if not, I' ll learn some things. I figure, I can put all my arrows in a 5" bullseye with the piece of crap bow that I' ve been hunting with (at 25 yards)....I should do better, with nowledgable guidance... and a descent bow. Thanks for the help...

VOZ:

Do a wingspan method for draw length. With your arms fully extended with palms out, have someone measure from one fingertip to another. Take that measurement, substract 15, and divide by 2. This will be a very good starting point for draw length.

Example: 70 - 15 = 55 55 divided by 2 = 27 1/2

I usually find that what you determine by this method + 1/2" will get you correct.

Good luck and welcome to the sport.

[color=#006633]Len,

You are killin' me with the colors.....

Hobbes,

I really do not have much to add as I tend to agree with what Len stated. However, I would like to mention that I was not necessarily disagreeing with the idea that time could not be used to help determine how much energy is imparted into the bowstring and subsequently the arrow but rather that distance is somewhat of a better characteristic to use when relating to a bow' s level of forgiveness (assuming all else is equal Len)

Len,

Quote:

If BH is the all-forgiving feature in a bow, can someone explain to many of my tournament shooters how they can possibly win so many times with 6 1/4" BH bows?

Just for argument' s sake, could it be because of their shorter draw lengths? (I remember hearing that somewhere) A shorter draw length would produce an equivalent power stroke with a shorter brace height bow in comparison to a longer draw length on a large brace height bow.

I am playing more of the devil' s advocate here than anything else as this line of thinking would be my only explanation for it.

I tend to agree that the higher brace height' s more practical advantage is the ability not to hit your sleeve while hunting.

One last question though, your statement regarding tournament shooters winning with a low brace height made me wonder.....could the same thing be related to axle to axle length in the sense that it is only one factor to be considered and that it is entirely possible that a person could win tournaments just as well with a short axle to axle length bow? Or, is it that brace height and axle to axle length really cannot be compared in this fashion due to the fact that while a short brace height is somewhat " negated" by a short draw length, a short axle to axle length really cannot be compensated for?

Frank:

I' m just a colorful kind of guy.[&:][&:] And I see it may be wearing off on you![X(]

Quote:

Just for argument' s sake, could it be because of their shorter draw lengths? (I remember hearing that somewhere) A shorter draw length would produce an equivalent power stroke with a shorter brace height bow in comparison to a longer draw length on a large brace height bow.

No. The draw lengths were actually in the 29 to 29 1/2 range; and, they were drawing too long and wouldn' t listen to me. This year one of them ordered a new bow and I convinced him to drop back 1/2" . He immediately started shooting better. One of the other ones, who was 29 1/2" , shot the 28 1/2" bow and couldn' t believe how much better he shot. Guess what? He dropped his draw length.

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I am playing more of the devil' s advocate here than anything else as this line of thinking would be my only explanation for it.

You' ve always had a little of the devil in you![>:]

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I tend to agree that the higher brace height' s more practical advantage is the ability not to hit your sleeve while hunting.

I also agree with higher BH; but, I don' t let it get in my way when selecting a bow.

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One last question though, your statement regarding tournament shooters winning with a low brace height made me wonder.....could the same thing be related to axle to axle length .....

The ATAs were on the longer end of the scale by today' s standards; but, below 40" . ATA is a factor in the stability of the bow at full draw. In other words, you can keep the bow level much more easier with a longer ATA.

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..... in the sense that it is only one factor to be considered and that it is entirely possible that a person could win tournaments just as well with a short axle to axle length bow?

If the distances are shorter than 30 yards, a shorter ATA (especially in the hands of someone with a shorter DL) could win tournaments. Anything is possible given complimentary criteria.

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Or, is it that brace height and axle to axle length really cannot be compared in this fashion due to the fact that while a short brace height is somewhat " negated" by a short draw length, a short axle to axle length really cannot be compensated for?

You REALLY threw me on this one, Frank. [&o] I can show you about a 25" DL bow with a 6ish BH and a 38" ATA that will shoot extremely well.

Len,

Thanks for the replies. They are much appreciated.

Let me jump to the last one as I think I may need to clarify myself further.

No argument there but let me try to restate my question.

Arguably, a shorter draw length can make a shorter brace height bow less critical of shooting errors in comparison to the same bow being shot with a longer draw length (assuming both shooters had the same form errors) because of the longer powerstroke and the increased chance of the shooting error affecting accuracy. So, theoretically speaking, a short draw length sort of " cancels out" some of the effects of a short brace height.

Axle to axle length is, obviously, another major factor in determining the forgiveness (or sensitivity level if you like) of any given bow. I do not think you will get anyone to argue that a shorter axle to axle length is somewhat more difficult to shoot for the average shooter because of simply physics. My question would simply be along the lines of....

....the level that a bow' s brace height affects the bow' s sensitivity/forgiveness can be directly related to the bow' s set draw length. But, is there anything that affects axle to axle length in the same way?

In relation to the example you used above...that 6 inch brace height, 38 inch axle to axle length bow might be very accurate in the hands of someone with a 25 inch draw length because of the shorter power stroke ( the shorter draw length sort of " compensate for" (for lack of a better phrase) the shorter brace height)......but if there was another bow with a 32 inch axle to axle length and an 8 inch brace height then there really is not any way to " negate" the effects of the shorter axle to axle length.

I may have caused more confusion with this one but I had to give it a try.

Sorry for the double post but to add to the previous comment without editing....

I guess I was ignoring the obvious because axle to axle length' s affect on accuracy/stability is impacted by draw length as much as brace height' s affect.

Sometimes it is scary when reasoning leads us back to the same basic answers.