TFOX

I agree and I pm'd him and apologised for it and he was fine with it.

You are correct,that was the question.

jbowersox

Apologize? For who? Are we not allowed to discuss our opinions on the matter at hand? Guess not. Oh yeah.... I forgot, my opinion is "crazy" and needs to be corrected by TFOX. What was I thinking?

Greg / MO

And this sentence gets at the crux of everything discussed here and nails it so simply...

To keep HIS draw length the SAME, he'll have to change the BOW'S draw length. Voila. Don't know how it can be explained any clearer.

jbowersox

My opinion differs. Is that allowed? If not let me know, because it sure seems like a select few people are allowed to have an opinion here.

At some point in this theory the BOW's draw length HAS to be too long, and at some point it HAS to be too short for a person's structure. Our arm length does not change and the distance from the end of that arm and the eyes nose and mouth will not change. If that is the case, doesn't it stand to reason that there is a medium that is neither too long or too short? At some point the bowstring has to be so far past a person's nose that he has to turn backwards. At some point the bowstring has to be so far in front the shooter has to lean into the string. Don't you think there is a perfect medium that allows the shooter to bring the string back a median distance that allows him to maintain vertical alignment without reaching, turning, or leaning?

Another equation. A person is shooting a 28" bow with a 1" d loop and uses a long release which adds another 1" to the anchor position of his hand. The bow perfectly touches the shooters nose and this setup allows for good form and arm positioning. According to your theory, if he decided to get rid of the loop and shoot a shorter release he would have to shoot closer to a 29.5-30" draw length bow. Is that right? Correct me if I'm stating your theory wrong. Would the string not be 1.5-2" behind his nose and the point at which he had good form? Yes his arm position might be correct, I'll give you that, but there is no way to correct the string's position in relation to the face. According to this reasoning the measurements of our body must adapt to the measurement of the accessories we put on our string instead of adapting the accessories (the loop in my theory) on the string to match the measurement's of our body.

GMMAT

You see....to assert that it changes the shooter's DL...you have to assume that there are multiple "optimal" setups for that archer....utilizing the same equipment.

That's pretty smple to understand, I would think, also.

IF the archer already knows he wants to use a Dloop. There's only ONE DL that will allow him to use the loop; release aid of choice AND to maintain proper form. If he changes the loop length, then.....his NOR the bow's (which will NEVER change) DL won't change. his anchors will (and his form will likely suffer).

I have a LOT....I mean a LOT of repsect for Greg/MO AND TFox's knowledge on most everything archery/hunting. I sincerely hope that isn't in question.

We've just obviously come to an empass in ideologies. I can accept that.

TFOX

I started it and it was getting out of hand and off topic,that is what I apologised for.

TFOX

HERE is where the vast majority of coaches and I mean real coaches will disagree with you.The arm positioning and solid anchors with the release hand are much more important than where you secondary anchors are.Regardless of what the website you referred to tells you,that is not what coaches say.It is simple to get sight picture back,increase peep size.Head angle can vary as well,yes vertical to slightly into the string is accepted but most pros lean into the string pretty good with their loops.They wouldn't need to if they didn't use a loop. Another thing,when you bring the release hand back,it either goes down or wraps around your head,neither is good and both restrict backtension.


Lets look at the pictures off your website.

This looks MUCH better than the pic with the loop.Much more solid anchor on his face but his release is atleast 1/2" if not an 1" too long to be able to use any type of squeeze or backtension to fire the release.





Speaking of backtension,this draw length LOOKS to be long.No way to execute proper backtension.NO solid anchor at all on the face.Knuckle under the ear is not solid.You can also see his head is turned at a different angle in both pics.He references his eye.I say reference the bill of his hat.





The reason I say it LOOKS long in both pics but it may NOT be is because the other things I see.Look at the bow shoulder,it is riding up into his ear,not down in the correct slot.It is loaded up,not back.His bow arm angle is also pointed downward,it should be more at a T angle toward the target.If he corrected this,his draw length might be closer to correct.

jbowersox

I'd say I'm in a similar position. I know how respected you guys are here (rightfully so) because I've read and participated in this site for about 2 years off and on. I guess my problem is with the way an opposing opinion is handled. I can accept an impasse in ideology too, up until the point my opinion is called "crazy" and needs to be corrected. At that point it is an impasse in dialogue. Only one opinion's dialogue is being accepted. I want the dialogue, that is the point of the forum. But like I said, at times it seems there are only certain people that are allowed to be right here and possibly constructive dialogue is squashed. I think we all have to come to the conclusion that we have flaws in our game and that other people's opinions could have some validity as well.

TFOX if I've jumped to a conclusion as to what you were apologizing about please forgive me. The way I read that comment it sounded like you were apologizing for an incorrect opinion. Again, sorry for jumping to that conclusion.

TFOX

Some pro pics for reference,and hopefully some might learn something as well.I completely agree the tip of the nost and corner of he mouth are probably the msot solid anchors one can utilize but for whatever reason,certain people and body types do not allow for good form and shot execution for them from those anchors.



Here is one of Hoyts top shooters,or atleast he was a couple years ago.




Notice how the elbow is directly behind the arrow.(this is something I see alot of shooters struggle with,even pros)Directly behind to slightly in front of the arrow is what most coaches consider "correct"




How about this guy.I have shot with him and he was absolutley lights out.I can assure you from standing beside him when he shoots,he has the correct arm angle.His stance is way open,or atleast is was then but he can shoot.

TFOX

I was rushed when I started the "debate" and came off harsh I know,but I did even in the first post apologise for what was about to transpire and sincerely was trying to let you know I wasn't trying to bash.