This is where the semantics come into play.He is referring to the draw length as a combination between shooter and bow.

But in your example,the shooter becomes overdrawn.

Then you'd think he'd have said that.....instead of making such a false, blanket statement.

Kills me the answer is SO evident to my questions.....(and SO simple to answer), yet they never get answered. that way

Have fun. This resembles mental masturbation....more than a discussion of facts.

I answered your question,you just didn't like it.:wink:

You answered this? What is the DL, after the change? Answer that. Give me the bow's DL in inches.

Well since you can't agree to disagree then I'll have to continue to present my option as well and they can choose between your long drawn out and complicated process and my simple just customize your loop because you have the correct draw length in the first place concept.

It is a matter of semantics.One will say the draw length increases by 1 1/2",another will say the BOWS draw length hasn't changed according to AMO standards.


Regardless,the shooter becomes overdrawn which is a draw length issue so draw length is affected by the loop.



I ask you,what happens if you go from not having a loop to shooting with a loop? Will the draw length of the bow need to be shortened to maintain proper form?


Anchors change,that is a given but what else?

They have the correct draw length if they go from shooting without a loop to shooting with a loop and make no adjustments to the bow?

The correct draw length has nothing to do with your loop. It has to do with your body dimensions and your form. That determines your draw length. No matter how you look at it my arm is a set distance away from my vertebrae. It will not change. The distance the bow string is drawn has to be correct in order for my head which is attached to my vertebrae to stay in alignment. If the draw length of the bow is too long, my head must compensate by leaning or turning back. If it is too short, it must compensate by leaning forward. Draw length allows for you to be in perfect vertical alignment while your loop allows for your arms to be in perfect horizontal alignment.

I have a 28" draw. When I draw a bow with a perfect 28" draw my head and vertebrae will be in perfect alignment every time. I won't have to lean back or forward. If I go to 27.5" I have to lean slightly into the string. If I have a 28.5" draw I have to lean or turn slightly back. Now at 28" if I add a 2" loop to my string in order to get my arm positioning and hand anchor correct I still have a 28" draw that hasn't changed my vertical body alignment. I don't however have a 30" draw. If that is what you are saying that is going to confuse people.

It certainly wouldn't be the bow's DL.

Sorry,this reply was to jb

Pulling out the Jeff reply,just answer the question.


Can you shoot your draw length with no loop and maintain proper form.Proper shoulder load,proper bone to bone contact AND alignment,proper release arm angle, alignment and proper bow arm positioning.


If you can then you are in the minority.


I HAVE to shoot 28 1/2" to 28 3/4" without a loop to be even close.I am at 28" with one.

So,you wouldn't lengthen the bows draw length to shoot off the string.

Interesting.

LOL...

AGAIN...you kill me. You keep adding in variables and "what-iffing" this thing to DEATH!

It's like herding cats!:throw::s2:

Yes because my consistent draw length allows me stay in vertical alignment whether I have a loop or not. I don't have to lean forward or back because of a short or long draw length.

You need to see a coach and learn a little about shoulder placement or bone to bone contact.There is back pressure on the shoulder,it should come back into socket when shooting the proper draw length,WHILE maintaing proper alignments.If you shoot the same length off the string as with a loop,these things are incorrect,or dangerous to you.

I just pulled my bow back from the string and my shoulder was so cramped when I tried to get my elbow back where it is supposed to be that I would need surgery after 6 months of shooting like this.That doesn't even take into account the amount of pin jerkiness there would be.



AND Jeff,I learned from the master.:poke:


The question I asked actually is exactly what the thread is about.YOU tried to change it..

So ignore it if you will but we all know the answer is the draw length of the bow has to be lengthend.:barmy:

T...You're beginning to remind me of an old member here at HNI. He was never wrong.....and was the world's master of the duck and weave.

jbowers provided some links to back his (and my) assertions a long ways back. As far as I'm concerned....you can argue with them, now....lol. They're probably mistaken, also, though......(right?).

I completely missed the links.


I will continue to go by what some of the top coaches in the industry say and I have a close friend who happens to be one of them.He laughs out loud when the statement is made that a loop doesn't affect draw length.

The first link,the person illustrating has some major issues to start with.He has no solid anchor and his release is too long.


T-bone even made a mention the actuall overall draw length is too long.


AND Jeff,That's like a rat calling a possum longed nosed.

Amazing how you flamed me for not answering your questions but instead of answering mine,you flame me.

Some of the greatest hunters in the world swear by SL and tell us the Rage is like throwing an axe through an animal, too.

Isnt it a bit different when there is money involved???:s12::confused0024:

As a former teaching professional (PGA), I can tell you that unorthodox = increased intrigue. Connect your own dots. My bet is not many of these coaches cited pimp their services for free.

A few links were provided from credible sources. And THEIR findings were passed off as ......well....just plain WRONG.

Does that make it so?

10 pages for a guy who wanted a simple answer. IMO, the guy wasn't looking to go to Worlds or anything, just a hunter looking for the right draw mods. I would assume that he wanted to anchor at the same point as he had for ever, so the answer, again IMO, would be that he should have his bow set at a half inch shorter if he was adding a loop to his arrangement.

I agree and I pm'd him and apologised for it and he was fine with it.

You are correct,that was the question.

Apologize? For who? Are we not allowed to discuss our opinions on the matter at hand? Guess not. Oh yeah.... I forgot, my opinion is "crazy" and needs to be corrected by :hail::hail::hail::hail: TFOX. What was I thinking?:confused0024:

And this sentence gets at the crux of everything discussed here and nails it so simply...

To keep HIS draw length the SAME, he'll have to change the BOW'S draw length. Voila. Don't know how it can be explained any clearer. :confused0024:

My opinion differs. Is that allowed? If not let me know, because it sure seems like a select few people are allowed to have an opinion here.

At some point in this theory the BOW's draw length HAS to be too long, and at some point it HAS to be too short for a person's structure. Our arm length does not change and the distance from the end of that arm and the eyes nose and mouth will not change. If that is the case, doesn't it stand to reason that there is a medium that is neither too long or too short? At some point the bowstring has to be so far past a person's nose that he has to turn backwards. At some point the bowstring has to be so far in front the shooter has to lean into the string. Don't you think there is a perfect medium that allows the shooter to bring the string back a median distance that allows him to maintain vertical alignment without reaching, turning, or leaning?

Another equation. A person is shooting a 28" bow with a 1" d loop and uses a long release which adds another 1" to the anchor position of his hand. The bow perfectly touches the shooters nose and this setup allows for good form and arm positioning. According to your theory, if he decided to get rid of the loop and shoot a shorter release he would have to shoot closer to a 29.5-30" draw length bow. Is that right? Correct me if I'm stating your theory wrong. Would the string not be 1.5-2" behind his nose and the point at which he had good form? Yes his arm position might be correct, I'll give you that, but there is no way to correct the string's position in relation to the face. According to this reasoning the measurements of our body must adapt to the measurement of the accessories we put on our string instead of adapting the accessories (the loop in my theory) on the string to match the measurement's of our body.

You see....to assert that it changes the shooter's DL...you have to assume that there are multiple "optimal" setups for that archer....utilizing the same equipment.

That's pretty smple to understand, I would think, also.

IF the archer already knows he wants to use a Dloop. There's only ONE DL that will allow him to use the loop; release aid of choice AND to maintain proper form. If he changes the loop length, then.....his NOR the bow's (which will NEVER change) DL won't change. his anchors will (and his form will likely suffer).

I have a LOT....I mean a LOT of repsect for Greg/MO AND TFox's knowledge on most everything archery/hunting. I sincerely hope that isn't in question.

We've just obviously come to an empass in ideologies. I can accept that.

I started it and it was getting out of hand and off topic,that is what I apologised for.

HERE is where the vast majority of coaches and I mean real coaches will disagree with you.The arm positioning and solid anchors with the release hand are much more important than where you secondary anchors are.Regardless of what the website you referred to tells you,that is not what coaches say.It is simple to get sight picture back,increase peep size.Head angle can vary as well,yes vertical to slightly into the string is accepted but most pros lean into the string pretty good with their loops.They wouldn't need to if they didn't use a loop. Another thing,when you bring the release hand back,it either goes down or wraps around your head,neither is good and both restrict backtension.


Lets look at the pictures off your website.

This looks MUCH better than the pic with the loop.Much more solid anchor on his face but his release is atleast 1/2" if not an 1" too long to be able to use any type of squeeze or backtension to fire the release.





Speaking of backtension,this draw length LOOKS to be long.No way to execute proper backtension.NO solid anchor at all on the face.Knuckle under the ear is not solid.You can also see his head is turned at a different angle in both pics.He references his eye.I say reference the bill of his hat.





The reason I say it LOOKS long in both pics but it may NOT be is because the other things I see.Look at the bow shoulder,it is riding up into his ear,not down in the correct slot.It is loaded up,not back.His bow arm angle is also pointed downward,it should be more at a T angle toward the target.If he corrected this,his draw length might be closer to correct.

I'd say I'm in a similar position. I know how respected you guys are here (rightfully so) because I've read and participated in this site for about 2 years off and on. I guess my problem is with the way an opposing opinion is handled. I can accept an impasse in ideology too, up until the point my opinion is called "crazy" and needs to be corrected. At that point it is an impasse in dialogue. Only one opinion's dialogue is being accepted. I want the dialogue, that is the point of the forum. But like I said, at times it seems there are only certain people that are allowed to be right here and possibly constructive dialogue is squashed. I think we all have to come to the conclusion that we have flaws in our game and that other people's opinions could have some validity as well.

TFOX if I've jumped to a conclusion as to what you were apologizing about please forgive me. The way I read that comment it sounded like you were apologizing for an incorrect opinion. Again, sorry for jumping to that conclusion.

Some pro pics for reference,and hopefully some might learn something as well.I completely agree the tip of the nost and corner of he mouth are probably the msot solid anchors one can utilize but for whatever reason,certain people and body types do not allow for good form and shot execution for them from those anchors.



Here is one of Hoyts top shooters,or atleast he was a couple years ago.




Notice how the elbow is directly behind the arrow.(this is something I see alot of shooters struggle with,even pros)Directly behind to slightly in front of the arrow is what most coaches consider "correct"




How about this guy.I have shot with him and he was absolutley lights out.I can assure you from standing beside him when he shoots,he has the correct arm angle.His stance is way open,or atleast is was then but he can shoot.

I was rushed when I started the "debate" and came off harsh I know,but I did even in the first post apologise for what was about to transpire and sincerely was trying to let you know I wasn't trying to bash.

http://www.performance-archery.tv/?q=node/78

Skip ahead to about 2:40 and watch from there. Interesting information.

Shane

Let me ASK this, T.....

In each of those photos....do you think those archers are utilizing their "optimal" DL?

This is where we disagree and it might be a matter of opinion.I have shot 2 different loop lengths with 2 different draw length settings on the bow and both are correct for me dependant upon what kind of shooting I want to do.

The longer draw length with the shorter d-loop allows me to get more behind the shot.MY draw length is slightly longer set up this way.I was shooting this style for serious 3-d from the open stake and would utilize it for indoor as well if I liked to shoot indoor.If I were to be competing in really hilly terrain,I would use more of my current 3-d set up because it is shorter,even with a long loop the bow being set at 28" allows for more back pressure if you will for those uphill/downhill shots.This is a little better hunting setup as well.

I understand what you are saying about the correct arm angle. I don't disagree in any way. What I'm saying is that I can get the correct arm angle, and the perfect nose and mouth anchor, by maintaining the same draw length bow and adjusting the length of the loop to put my hand anchor and arm angle in their correct spot. I don't have to adjust anything in my head or arm position because I'm not changing the draw length of the string. I customize the loop. If I was shooting without a loop and off the string, I customize my release length. My nose and mouth will meet the string the same way every time. My head stays the same, my anchor stays the same. With your method, your anchor stays the same but your head has to change because the string changed.

They are shooting the best draw length that they feel gives them the best chance to win.That is there optimum for what they are shooting at the time.These guys may not need to change,but then again,they are some of the best.


BUT,if you are getting at what I think you are getting at,if that loop is taken off,that "optimum" is going to change.

How can you wrap the finger for a solid backtension shot if you lengthen the release?



Yes,good info but no one is disagreeing with that.

Thats a really cool site. I'll be using that for sure. He makes my point about draw length not being determined by the loop. 2:45. Draw length is set then the loop is used to set your anchor, he makes the point that short is ok, long is bad.

Same release aid?

Be careful with that site though. For some reason when I select some of the videos it redirects you to some webcam site. Don't know if it will reek havoc on you Windows users.:poke:

YES,it was the same.Not sure if my videos are the same release,I am thinking the second is with my BT but they setup the same.I have made several videos with different releases over the years.