Regardless... Something changes. You can anchor differently to compensate feel/string contact, but you are still longer than before if you didnt have a loop...

Draw length is not measured to the d-loop,is that what you want.(I have stated how draw length is measured in this thread)


That isn't the question.Nor does it have a darn thing to do with the thread.

BUT the loop length does affect how the shooter sets the draw length of the bow and/or his anchors,they work together.

AGREED!

Now leave EVERYTHING else the same....and change ONLY the loop length.

Does DL change? What does?

Now the bow is setup incorrectly because the body positioning is incorrect.(release elbow is overdrawing)SO,what adjustment needs to be made to correct this?

That's what I thought.

Thanks.

You see...when most everyone sees the question asked...."Does loop length affect DL".....they're thinking of one archer, shooting one bow, utilizing one release aid, AND they're assuming the archer was properly fitted, initially.

You can add in all the variables (i.e. "what if he changes release aids"; "what if ATA is changed") you want...but the bottom line is....if loop length is the ONLY variable changed....it will NOT affect DL (if you maintain ALL of the other criteria mentioned, above). To shoot the bow, he'll adjust his anchor points. Will they be "wrong"? According to your videos.....no.

Your archer, utilizing improper form (after the loop alteration) just reinforces that.

JV out.

Here is the question and some of you seem to think it only affects anchors,IT DOES NOT.

When the question is asked,does a loop affect draw length,the answer is yes,regardless of how you want to spin it.

I changed the draw length in my videos a 1/2" to accomidate the different loop lengths with the same bow.

If I have my bow set at 28" with a .5" loop. How long is my draw length? 28" correct? If I add a 1" draw loop, how long is my draw. It still is 28" correct? The only thing that changes is the position of my hand in the anchor. Therefore I can customize the length of my loop to allow my arm and elbow to be in perfect alignment for my shot. No draw length adjustment needed. My head and torso remain in aligment without having to lean back or turn my head slightly to compensate. The foundation (my body and head in relation to the string) and where the anchors on my face are haven't changed. The only thing that changes is my hand anchor which I can customize.

So when the question is asked, does a loop affect draw length, the answer is NO, regardless of how you want to spin it. A d loop will effect where your hand is anchored, as will the length of your release, but it won't change your facial anchors to the string or your head and body body position.

Here are a two links that might say it a little more clearly than I can
http://www.huntersfriend.com/drawlength.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ox9Hc...eature=related

The bow's DL is still set to 28" but your DL is now 28.5".
The bow's DL is still set to 28" but your DL is now 29".

If the bow has a draw stop post and, say, cams for 28" then, after 28", the draw stop post hits the limb. If you now add a 1" d-loop the draw stop post is still going to hit the limb at 28" but you changed your DL to 29" by adding the 1" d-loop. If you now shorten the d-loop by .5" then the draw stop post still hits the limb after the string reaches 28" but your DL has been shortened by a .5".

So I can shoot a 24" bow with 4.5" d loop and reach my 28.5 inch shooter draw length and all is ok? So in other words the bows draw length doesn't matter because all can be adjusted by the loop?

I don't think you all are recognizing what a shorter or longer draw length bow will do to your sight picture and form. If I have a 28" bow that barely touches my nose at full draw with my head in perfect alignment what will happen when I change the bows draw length to 28.5"? The string will now be .5" past where it was meeting my nose at 28". I'm forced to turn my head or lean back. I have to adjust and begin to compromise sight and form. My sight picture turns away from the target. Move it to 29" and I turn further away or lean further back. Move it to 30" and my head is pointed further away. Move it back to 28" inches and my head is turned toward the target and my head is brought back into alignment without leaning back. Do you see the effect a bow's draw length has on your head and body?

So maybe you say, "But your elbow is pointed way up?" well then I need a longer d loop to bring my elbow back down, but I don't need to make the draw length on my bow longer. Maybe you say "my elbow is too low", well then I have to shorten my loop or my release. But by doing those I don't compromise sight picture or body position, I'm only adjusting my hand position and the efficiency at which I hold the bow at full draw.

Outstanding question.

TFOX, I believe you said something earlier which I completely agree with. I think it is the only possible variable to what I am saying and that is the difference between a long axle to axle bow and and a short one. The string angles at full draw are different which will undoubtedly affect you anchor points. This could possible make for a variation in draw length, but I think that it would be minute at best.

Your hand anchor might be ok but your sight picture certainly would change. That is why you set the bow DL as close as you can to your optimum DL and then adjust to get that optimum with the d-loop.

Agreed. So you are saying there is an "optimum DL"? and that the adjustments are made with the loop and not the draw length?

Yes and once you are at that optimum if you then change the d-loop you will have to change your DL to accomodate the new d-loop.

But why would you change from the "optimum DL" if it is optimum? Why wouldn't you change your d loop instead of changing your DL? Remember if you change the draw length of the bow you are changing where the string is in relationship to your optimum sight picture and form.

You wouldn't. So then there is no need to mess with the d-loop :wink: .

I see what you are saying. You again are basing draw length from the d loop and not from the string. I'm not for sure why though. It seems everyone is willing to sacrifice there sight picture and form for the proper arm position when you could have the best of both.

But the loop does have bearing on how you set your draw length so therefore,it does affect draw length and people do change draw lengths and loop lengths all the time for different venues.

Ever seen the loops they use in speed shooting,tall and long,they adjust the bow to accomidate it.


BUT again people,this is a newby asking about how a d-loop will affect his measured draw length and gets the answer it won't.That is completely innacurate.He measured his wing span and came up with a draw length.He is going to be shooting with a loop and wanted to know does he need to subtract from it to get the correct draw length for a loop.NO,If he were shooting off the string,he would need to add to the measurement so the draw IS affected by the length of the loop because the shooter has to adjust the bow for it..

It is that simple.

When I was competitive I new the difference in an 1/8" draw length adjustment and beliueve me,I knew what was optimum.I also realize anchors are adjusted in 3 planes verses 1.

SO TFOX.....If I inderstand you....there are MANY potential "Correct" DL's an archer could have....even though he's using the same bow; same release aid; same anchor point references (string position is correct)?

Really?

There is no "optimal"?

Did you answer this question???

I am saying you use BOTH,the loop and the bows draw length to achieve optimum draw length and anchors to achieve optimum draw length for the venue you are going to shoot.The fact that the loop is even on the bow requires a shorter setting on the bow,that clearly means the loop affected draw length.Come on,it really is that simple.

Some shooters may not see the need to change draw lengths but MANY do.

When I shot a short loop,it(the bow) was too short unless I increased the bows draw length.I was able to achieve all my anchors and proper body positions at that point.

YES,there are many optimal settings,just like there are different optimum setting for the peep height.When I was shooting 3-d from the open stake I set my peep at the optimum for 33 yards(average shot),when hunting I set it closer to optimum for 25 or so.


If I were shooting I would set it for 50 or 60 most likely.

You don't remember RJ on here talking about how he sets his indoor bows up longer than his 3-d bows and his hunting bows even shorter.It is common practice.The changes are not usually more than a 1/4" and many do it in varying ways.Twist on strings,cable twist ,loop length adjustments and/or draw length module adjustments.


It's a dumb question that requires no answer.

How did you increase the bow's DL?

TFox...this is like a broken record. Forget about initial setup. Say you've gone through it your way....and subsequently decide to change your loop length. Did you change the DL?....or....move your anchor?

And why in hell do you keep referencing adjusting different bows. That's ridiculous.

They aren't just different bows,they are adjusted longer,to get behind the shot,anchors can be adjusted accordingly.

The damn question is does the loop affect draw length and there is no way around it,it does Plain and simple.If you shoot without a loop the bow HAS GOT TO BE SET LONGER.If you shoot with one,it has to be set shorter.The anchors change as well.

What you have from there is semantics and really does't matter.

T...If you think it's Ok for the guy to shoot a 4.5" loop.....then I give up.

Semantics...different philosophies.....refusal by me to science boink this....whatever. Every time I set criteria....you change it.

This is pointless. Have a great weekend (sincerely).

Are you freaking serious? Where in the hell did I say that.I said that was a dumb question not worth answering.

It isn't about your criteria,that's what you seem to miss. The loop affects the draw length,plain and symple.No way around it.

Shoot with a loop and what has to be done? Now shoot without one,now what has to be done.That is the whole point.


We can argue the semantics about the loop length and where does draw length start but I really don't care one way or another about that.

I've shot both with and without a loop, and the only difference was my anchor point was moved further back with a loop. I've shot rope releases, caliper heads, t-handle and wrist strap releases...the one consistant factor was my draw length, it always remains 26.5".

You didn't maintain proper form that way.Something has to change.

Yeah...like I said my anchor point changes from each style. You can always adjust the length of the loop to help maintain your normal anchor point.

Well, I just want to know what the heck TFOX is jamming to in those videos?

I need you too sweet heart.

Not if there isn't one on the string.:confused0024:

Why can't you just make a longer loop instead of changing the draw length? Isn't that easier than changing the draw length? Like I said when you change the draw length that isn't the only thing you are changing. You have to change the angle of your head or body positioning when you do. It is impossible not to.

You can and I have done both.I prefer 1 over the other but you may not.But when the loop is installed on the bow your release hand goes back.Something must be adjusted to bring the release hand back forward so to maintain proper elbow alignment.This is done with the draw length of the bow.:wink:


Have fun:wave:

All right I'm going to go ahead and give up on this argument. I'll be ok with you guys adjusting your draw length, your anchor, your peep height, your loop length and so on if you guys will be ok with me just adjusting my loop length. Sound like a good deal? :party0005: Beverages are on me when you all are done fiddling with every aspect of your bow. See you then!:happy0157:

It is pretty simple. If you draw your bow back to the same anchor point, the bow will be drawn a bit shorter with a loop. A loop does effect the draw length of the bow.

I never have said not to adjust the loop,I agree with this practice and do it myself to get anchors right or to get elbow position correct..I have agreed with this from the beginning.

You are right, you never did say not to adjust the loop. I'm just saying that is the only thing I have to adjust because my draw length is spot on in the first place. :poke: Listen TFOX, no hard feelings, but we aren't going to come to an agreement on this. I'm ok with it at this point if you are.

My only problem I have is telling people that have never shot a bow or never shot with a loop that the loop will not affect the draw length of the bow.If they install a loop,there will have to be an adjustment to the bow,unless the bow was on the short side for them anyway.

So,I will continue to correct this for those people when they ask the question.Too many people end up overdrawn because of this advice.:wink:

Should have posted this earlier.He is one of the best.


Here's what Bob Ragsdale has to say about string loops:

"Eliminates arrow-falloff at full draw.
- Makes nocking point location less critical.
- No need to re-nock after a let-down.
- No serving wear from release aid contact.
- Assures easy one-handloading
- Releases can remain attached and ready to go.
- Eliminates gaps in serving from up pressure on nocking point.
- Controls peep sight rotation.
- Eliminates nock warping due to pinch at full draw.
- Allows release aids to be at an angle rather than only level.
- Makes shorter length bows easier to work with.
- Extends maximum available sight range area.
- Prevents arrow from sliding down the string during the shot.
- Prevents release aid rope slap with high cheek anchor.
- Improves shoulder alignment.
- Loop length can modify draw length of bow.
- Eliminates chin slap from inward swinging release aid ropes.
- Can be used with all non-rope release aids.
- Reduces string vibration noise."

So if you change from a 1/2" D-loop to a 2" D-loop on a 28" DL bow (Hoyt)....what's the DL on that bow, now?