60# versus 70#...No difference in power? Maybe
02-09-2009 | 01:27 AM
#31
Joined: May 2006
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RE: 60# versus 70#...No difference in power? Maybe
ORIGINAL: im ocd
Let me try to make my point in a different way:
Someone post the question: "I'm going on a moose hunt, I've got a Brute or X3 pulling 70# at 28'' draw, is it enough for moose?" The replies will be... Yes.
Same moose hunt, but the person is now using a 58# X Force. The replies might include comments about trying to increase draw weight, use heavy arrows or cut on contact heads.
Ironically there is no power difference in the two bows.[:@]
Another example:
"I just bought a new Martin Mamba recurve pulling 50 LB @ 28'' I'll be shooting 500 grain arrows at 177 fps (35# KE / .39 momentum) is it enough for black bears over bait?" The answers will be... Yes
Same black bear hunt over bait, except the equipment is different:"I shoot a Equalizer set on 40 LB it shoots a 380 grain arrow @ 213 fps ( 38# KE / .38 momentum)" Do you think the answers will still be yes? I don't; they will say turn up the draw weight.
Ironically there is no power difference in the two bows.[:@]
That's the point of the thread, in both of my examples the bows produce the same power, butyou know the replies would be like I said. See the problem?
Let me try to make my point in a different way:
Someone post the question: "I'm going on a moose hunt, I've got a Brute or X3 pulling 70# at 28'' draw, is it enough for moose?" The replies will be... Yes.
Same moose hunt, but the person is now using a 58# X Force. The replies might include comments about trying to increase draw weight, use heavy arrows or cut on contact heads.
Ironically there is no power difference in the two bows.[:@]
Another example:
"I just bought a new Martin Mamba recurve pulling 50 LB @ 28'' I'll be shooting 500 grain arrows at 177 fps (35# KE / .39 momentum) is it enough for black bears over bait?" The answers will be... Yes
Same black bear hunt over bait, except the equipment is different:"I shoot a Equalizer set on 40 LB it shoots a 380 grain arrow @ 213 fps ( 38# KE / .38 momentum)" Do you think the answers will still be yes? I don't; they will say turn up the draw weight.
Ironically there is no power difference in the two bows.[:@]
That's the point of the thread, in both of my examples the bows produce the same power, butyou know the replies would be like I said. See the problem?
Dr. Ed Ashby frequently used a 90lb longbow which generated .52-.57 momentum and a KE of 41-44lbs depending on the arrow being used. He did not seem to have any trouble taking down Cape Buffs and Asian Water Buffalo.
And yet people get in a tizzy when I tell them I plan on hunting a bison with my setup.
02-09-2009 | 03:17 AM
#32
Thread Starter
Joined: Jun 2008
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From: USA
RE: 60# versus 70#...No difference in power? Maybe
ORIGINAL: Doegirl75
I just put together some "bison" arrows. Total weight 678 grains with an FOC of 21% From my 82nd, 26.5" @ 54lbs I get aKE of 54lbs with a Momentum of 0.56.
Dr. Ed Ashby frequently used a 90lb longbow which generated .52-.57 momentum and a KE of 41-44lbs depending on the arrow being used. He did not seem to have any trouble taking down Cape Buffs and Asian Water Buffalo.
And yet people get in a tizzy when I tell them I plan on hunting a bison with my setup.
I just put together some "bison" arrows. Total weight 678 grains with an FOC of 21% From my 82nd, 26.5" @ 54lbs I get aKE of 54lbs with a Momentum of 0.56.
Dr. Ed Ashby frequently used a 90lb longbow which generated .52-.57 momentum and a KE of 41-44lbs depending on the arrow being used. He did not seem to have any trouble taking down Cape Buffs and Asian Water Buffalo.
And yet people get in a tizzy when I tell them I plan on hunting a bison with my setup.
I've seen the Ashby study / reports, I think they like to have a starting momentum of .5
Your rig does produce more momentum / KE than most traditional rigs.
I've blown through several (9 or more) whitetails with momentum of about .41 / 60# KE at launch (I even used mechanical heads).Those numbersdon't get much notice;people may not realize that's a 315-345 grain arrow at 293 fps.
My current set up(s) produce more "power" than I've had in the past.
The 430 grain arrow @ 273 fps = 71# KE / .52 momentum should be enough to make the heavy arrow advocates happy.
It's overkill for the whitetails I hope to shoot.
02-09-2009 | 04:11 AM
#33
Giant Nontypical
Joined: Jun 2007
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RE: 60# versus 70#...No difference in power? Maybe
ORIGINAL: TEmbry
I wasn't comparing DL's to his screamin xforce...I was more comparing to the 70# test bows set at "28-29" hunting draw lengths". My bow IBOs fairly similar to alot of those models, and has the same DL and DW....yet has 8-13 ft/lbs more KE than those listed. Arrow choice makes a huge difference.
I wasn't comparing DL's to his screamin xforce...I was more comparing to the 70# test bows set at "28-29" hunting draw lengths". My bow IBOs fairly similar to alot of those models, and has the same DL and DW....yet has 8-13 ft/lbs more KE than those listed. Arrow choice makes a huge difference.
I have actually shot arrows weighing from 326 grains up to 500 grains out of my 82nd checked the speed, weighed the arrows, and figured the KE.
It varied only 4#. Hardly a Huge difference
At least I don't consider 4# Huge[8D]
Dan
02-09-2009 | 05:14 AM
#34
Spike
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 55
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From: Warren,Indiana
RE: 60# versus 70#...No difference in power? Maybe
WoW, this is a pretty good thread as I'm always keeping my eye out for something better, my current compound setup only shoots 310 with a 540 gr. arrow, I shoot trad mostly though andmy longbowshoots the same 540gr. arrow at 208-210....both should be enough to kill anything we have here.
02-09-2009 | 06:39 AM
#35
Boone & Crockett
Joined: Oct 1998
Posts: 18,322
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From: Hughesville, PA USA
RE: 60# versus 70#...No difference in power? Maybe
ORIGINAL: im ocd
Guys, I realize I'm comparing a top model bow to average performers, that's the whole point. A really high IBO can offset a lower draw weight.
Guys, I realize I'm comparing a top model bow to average performers, that's the whole point. A really high IBO can offset a lower draw weight.
02-09-2009 | 06:41 AM
#36
Boone & Crockett
Joined: Oct 1998
Posts: 18,322
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From: Hughesville, PA USA
RE: 60# versus 70#...No difference in power? Maybe
ORIGINAL: MeanV2
If you are going to compare apples to apples & oranges to oranges then bows should be both set at 28" or 29" That's hardly a comparison worth even noting when one is 29" and the other is 28". If you don't believe ittest a 29", 60# X Force against a28" 70#Vetrix.
I have actually shot arrows weighing from 326 grains up to 500 grains out of my 82nd checked the speed, weighed the arrows, and figured the KE.
It varied only 4#. Hardly a Huge difference
At least I don't consider 4# Huge[8D]
Dan
ORIGINAL: TEmbry
I wasn't comparing DL's to his screamin xforce...I was more comparing to the 70# test bows set at "28-29" hunting draw lengths". My bow IBOs fairly similar to alot of those models, and has the same DL and DW....yet has 8-13 ft/lbs more KE than those listed. Arrow choice makes a huge difference.
I wasn't comparing DL's to his screamin xforce...I was more comparing to the 70# test bows set at "28-29" hunting draw lengths". My bow IBOs fairly similar to alot of those models, and has the same DL and DW....yet has 8-13 ft/lbs more KE than those listed. Arrow choice makes a huge difference.
I have actually shot arrows weighing from 326 grains up to 500 grains out of my 82nd checked the speed, weighed the arrows, and figured the KE.
It varied only 4#. Hardly a Huge difference
At least I don't consider 4# Huge[8D]
Dan
At 5 grains per pound, they both would have similiar energy but the momentum on the heavier poundage bow would be much, much greater shooting a heavier arrow the same speed as the lower poundage bow.
So in reality, a 60 # bow cannot compare to a 70# bow for all aspects of penetration theorems.
02-09-2009 | 06:50 AM
#37
Giant Nontypical
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 7,367
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From:
RE: 60# versus 70#...No difference in power? Maybe
ORIGINAL: Rob/PA Bowyer
Actually Dan, if he wanted to compare apples to apples then he would have compared a 60 # PSE with the same 70 # PSE, then we would see a true representation of what a 70 # bows does over a 60# bow however,
At 5 grains per pound, they both would have similiar energy but the momentum on the heavier poundage bow would be much, much greater shooting a heavier arrow the same speed as the lower poundage bow.
So in reality, a 60 # bow cannot compare to a 70# bow for all aspects of penetration theorems.
ORIGINAL: MeanV2
If you are going to compare apples to apples & oranges to oranges then bows should be both set at 28" or 29" That's hardly a comparison worth even noting when one is 29" and the other is 28". If you don't believe ittest a 29", 60# X Force against a28" 70#Vetrix.
I have actually shot arrows weighing from 326 grains up to 500 grains out of my 82nd checked the speed, weighed the arrows, and figured the KE.
It varied only 4#. Hardly a Huge difference
At least I don't consider 4# Huge[8D]
Dan
ORIGINAL: TEmbry
I wasn't comparing DL's to his screamin xforce...I was more comparing to the 70# test bows set at "28-29" hunting draw lengths". My bow IBOs fairly similar to alot of those models, and has the same DL and DW....yet has 8-13 ft/lbs more KE than those listed. Arrow choice makes a huge difference.
I wasn't comparing DL's to his screamin xforce...I was more comparing to the 70# test bows set at "28-29" hunting draw lengths". My bow IBOs fairly similar to alot of those models, and has the same DL and DW....yet has 8-13 ft/lbs more KE than those listed. Arrow choice makes a huge difference.
I have actually shot arrows weighing from 326 grains up to 500 grains out of my 82nd checked the speed, weighed the arrows, and figured the KE.
It varied only 4#. Hardly a Huge difference
At least I don't consider 4# Huge[8D]
Dan
At 5 grains per pound, they both would have similiar energy but the momentum on the heavier poundage bow would be much, much greater shooting a heavier arrow the same speed as the lower poundage bow.
So in reality, a 60 # bow cannot compare to a 70# bow for all aspects of penetration theorems.
Trevor compare your numbers to Robs! He is shooting a 28.5" DL still short of you but closer none the less.
In a apples to apples comparison in that reards. You would want both bows to be the same draw length, and even shooting the same weight arrow.
No doubt today there are a few 60# bows that can produce as much or more KE of a 70# bow of a differentmodel.
Dan
02-09-2009 | 11:35 AM
#38
Thread Starter
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 393
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From: USA
RE: 60# versus 70#...No difference in power? Maybe
Generally speaking, off the same bow, adding 10# of draw weight will add 23-25 fps, an inch of draw will add 9-11 fps.
I shot my X Force on 29'' from last summer until a couple of weeks ago. Althoughit shot great and string contact was not a problemI always felt a little stretched out. Iinstalled a 28'' moduleand paper tuned the bow. I have not shot outside for groups (yet) to see if I like the difference. I did like the feel I got in the garage. I've currently gotthe drawset on the "-" post, which is where it was with the 29'' module. Moving the string to the neutral setting adds 3/8'' and moving to the "+" setting adds another 3/8'' so by getting the extra module I've given myself a lot of leeway with the draw. I think the bow draws a little long. I've shot 29'' bows from Mathews, Bowtech, and Hoyt, this is the first time I've gone to a 28'' draw. (However, most of those bows had one piece grips and this is like shooting bare riser; going from 1 pc grip to sideplates only on Hoyt added 1/4'' to the draw). When I first purchased the bow, I tweaked it up to 60#with the 29'' module;set on the neutral setting, it blasted a 385 gr. arrow @ 303 fps. The 29'' module on neutral was too long for me.
I shot my X Force on 29'' from last summer until a couple of weeks ago. Althoughit shot great and string contact was not a problemI always felt a little stretched out. Iinstalled a 28'' moduleand paper tuned the bow. I have not shot outside for groups (yet) to see if I like the difference. I did like the feel I got in the garage. I've currently gotthe drawset on the "-" post, which is where it was with the 29'' module. Moving the string to the neutral setting adds 3/8'' and moving to the "+" setting adds another 3/8'' so by getting the extra module I've given myself a lot of leeway with the draw. I think the bow draws a little long. I've shot 29'' bows from Mathews, Bowtech, and Hoyt, this is the first time I've gone to a 28'' draw. (However, most of those bows had one piece grips and this is like shooting bare riser; going from 1 pc grip to sideplates only on Hoyt added 1/4'' to the draw). When I first purchased the bow, I tweaked it up to 60#with the 29'' module;set on the neutral setting, it blasted a 385 gr. arrow @ 303 fps. The 29'' module on neutral was too long for me.
