Just Have To Say
 

Im not sure if this is where this is supposed to be posted, i am sort of new to this site, and havent really searched around much. So if it is, im sorry.

I recently posted a topic on regulations in the Bowhunting forum, (Regulations Regulations!), and if you havent read it, then maybe you should to see why I am posting this one.

In a reply to my post, another topic was brought to my attention about a specific set of rules that alot of states have and inforce. Me being from Wisconsin, I dont know much about any other states laws or regulations when it comes to baiting and the restrictions, but I know WI. rules, and I dont believe it s a fair judgement. I have read and heard many different opinions on the matter, and most of them were in the realm of realiaty, others way far fetched. There are pro's and con's to everything we do, that is why I dont understand the baiting rules, here in WI.

I dont see, and nobody has yet to show me, where having a bait pile is a bad thing, if it is regulated and cared for.
Dont get me wrong, someone that gioes out and dumps a truck load of corn or apples, is completly ridiculous, but someone that carries maybe 5-10 gallons of corn or apples, maybe a mixture, to a secluded area, back in the woods, shouldnt get the shaft.
For one, the little bit of food there, will not only be eaten by deer, but by other animals in the woods. The same animals that have been living, sleeping and eating with each other for hundreds of years. The deer are not the only ones that get the goods-
For two, how can 5-10 gallon pile of food, really congregrate animals? IMO that just isnt possible! Deer, just one of many, are browsers and cant just live off of one food source alone, they nned an array of foods to aid in thier well-being, so what little amount is left for them, isnt enough to make them saty there all the time, and as hunters we should all know that there are many other variables that make deer move around to different areas-
For three, I dont know about the rest of the world, but me, all the food I would get for my bait pile, was from the exact same place they would get it from initionally, the farmers fields or the orchards, whatever it may be. Animals eat that all the time, and if anyhthing, would draw more animals there, because of how big the food source is!

I know that some people have the exact opposite mind-set, when it comes to baiting, but ask yourselfs this....
Are there any rules for hunting over a cornfield? how about hunting over an apple tree? what if they said you cant hunt over a food plot?
What would you say if they told you that you could only hunt in oaks, before the acorns fell, would you like it? Or how about we go the other way, for the animal lovers, what if they put out regulations that said you were allowed no more the two birdfeeders in your yard?

These little things are what keeps destroying our beloved sport. Im not saying that we should be able to do whatever we want, but I am saying that we should be able to do things in a reasonable manner. Rules and regs. are a great idea, and keeping things in line. So why cant we come up with ruls for that?
If your able to plant a food plot, and keep track of it, take care of it, producce nice food sources, then why cant you put out only so much bait, in a set amount of time, watch it, make sure all is well and then hunt it? I mean whats more important, hunting for the love of it or to be "ruled out" so to speak?

I believe that regulations are great, and that they do help, but I thought that they were suppose to protect us, not confine us!!!

RE: Just Have To Say
 

The big problem is not the congration of the animals, the fact the leave saliva on the bait its self and then other animals come up and eat it with in close time proximity of each other. Normal deer food, are small browse and nuts and fruit, the deer consume the whole thing not leaving any of it behind. and what saliva they do leave behind is usually in effective because of the time that allapses before the next deer eats off it. I have used bait to get pictures on trail cameras, and they do congregate, i have some pics with over 10 deer on the pile of sweetfeed. and more walking down to partake. They push their way in and eat food in the same spot another deer was up to his/her ears into. The spread of saliva is the big problem from everything i have read.

RE: Just Have To Say
 

Here's my view on the subject. It isn't popular....but sue me.;) I said this a LONG time ago.

“Saying that a corn field isn't an artificial food source don't make it so. It's as artificial as a pile of corn. The deer don't know the difference......except the last guy was nice enough to shell it for them.”

RE: Just Have To Say
 

We have hundreds of thousands of acres of corn fields.

RE: Just Have To Say
 

Answer me this one question?
HOW MANY DEER CAN FIT INTO A 20 ACRE CORNFIELD?
V.S.
HOW MANY DEER CAN FIT AROUND A 10 GALLON PILE?

RE: Just Have To Say
 

How many deer would come to either if they weren't there?

RE: Just Have To Say
 

Big difference between a pile/feeder of corn, and a corn field. With the pile of corn, the deer are coming to a specific spot. With a corn field, they mightbe feeding anywhere in or around it.;)

RE: Just Have To Say
 

OK EI.....So answer me this one.

Spread the corn over 100 acres....and grow 100 acres of corn. What's the difference? Is corn indigenous to the area?

I'll conceded the bait pile is larger in the example of the corn field. So can we establish that the difference is the size of the pile?

RE: Just Have To Say
 

Does the cornfield help you pattern the deer? Can you watch for a day or 2 and know when and where they will enter? Yeah, I thought so. One big bait pile!

RE: Just Have To Say
 

No, let's not spread the corn over 100 acres. Just read what I said again, it hasn't changed.:D

RE: Just Have To Say
 

FYI...the presence of corn fields can actually cause hunting to become more difficult than if it wasn't there due to the fact that many of the deer will use them as shelter to hide from hunters. It has caused me headaches many times when our neighbor grows corn along the borders of our land.

Comparing a field of standing corn, which can be hundreds of acres in size, to a pile of food which can be placed anywhere that the hunter wishes (beneath a perfectly placed stand in the woods?) is pretty stupid IMO

RE: Just Have To Say
 

For starters rimrok job needs to check the scoreboard from last night, sorry buddy time to change the avatar JK.

I agree with bowtech love in general. 5 to 10 gallons of bait will not completely change the deer movement in an area. The only way such a small bait pile will work is if the hunter has done his scouting and puts the bait in area where the deer are already feeding, traveling, bedding etc. Used in that way five gallons of bait is no differen that using doe piss, c'mere deer, buckjam, or any other legal attractant.

However a permanent feeder or food plot will permanenttly change deer patterns and stack the odds in a hunter favor considerably more than a moderate bait pile.

I also hunt in packerland (GO PACK), and IMO the restrictions on baiting are unfair to those who may not hunt on private land or land they own, and cannot plant food plots.

RE: Just Have To Say
 

Not being able to pattern deer in a cornfield is pretty stupid in my opinion. If you don't like it don't do it. But if its legal, don't condemn others for choosing to do so. And if its not legal where you hunt that may just have something to do with your opinion.

RE: Just Have To Say
 

Ridiculous comparison.

RE: Just Have To Say
 

Why? Really, why? Each way can help a hunter pattern deer and get a shot opportunity. it may take longer in a corn field but deer are creatures of habit. Find where they enter and exit and chances are if you set up there they will come by again.

RE: Just Have To Say
 

First time I see an indigenous corn stalk or soy bean plant sprout up....I'll change my tune!:)

Until that time.....it's "artificial".

Does asoy beanfield alter deer movements? If the answer's yes.....then what if my neighbor feeds deer and I hunt them on their way to the feed? What's the difference?

Just for the sake of conversation....:)

RE: Just Have To Say
 

Ok, you guys are loosing focus. The original question was what harm is there in baiting. The correct answer has been given; spreading of disease. As mentioned a pile of corn is not consumed in one mouthful so saliva is being transmitted from deer to deer. The only way you could compare the bait pile to standing corn is if you seperated each kernel so that no deer was eating behind another. It could be done by spreading a small amount of corn over a large area but realistically this isn't going to happen. I'd rather not bait (for GMMAT that means bait pile) than loose a good portion of our deer to disease and have the season closed for a couple years.

RE: Just Have To Say
 

You are absolutely right. I did lose focus. It happens to me whenever guys in the ag belt condemn feeders. Then they say the cornfield they hunt is a natural food source. The only ag around my hunting grounds are hay fields for the cattle. Not quite the draw for deer that corn fields are.

RE: Just Have To Say
 

Pa is hardly in the ag belt, and I don't have any crops in my hunting area, at all.;)

RE: Just Have To Say
 

Thats cool then EI. It wasn't directed at just you. for what its worth I don't hunt over feeders.( well I do for feral hogs, not deer) I just don't understand why some guys just can't let people hunt how they want if its legal without jumping all over them for LEGAL methods.

RE: Just Have To Say
 

If hunting cornfields, bean fields, oak trees & other food sources is so easy & the same as hunting over bait, why would anyone waste the time/money of creating a bait pile?

RE: Just Have To Say
 

Rybo I posted a thread a while back RE: baiting in SC and the success rate of people hunting over bait v. NOT hunting over bait. I can re-post the results for those who thinks hunting over bait is such a huge advantage.

Maybe the guy you describe above doesn't have the luxury of planting a crop field? Doesn't own the land to be able to do so? What's the difference in a 1/2 acre food plot and a spread feeder?

Let's just be honest when we discuss these things and leave misconceptions and conjecture out of it. Will bait draw in deer? Sure! Will ag fields? Sure! Food plots? Sure! Recurring theme? Sure!

RE: Just Have To Say
 

rybo I never said its "so easy" or "the same". I said either way could be used to help pattern deer. I generally hunt in oak flats. They too can be used to pattern deer. Where they come from and when they feed, thats what we all want to know. I believe a feeder, particularly one with a timer will make it easier.

RE: Just Have To Say
 

OK, some of y'all don't "GET IT," so let me help you out. BAIT PILES HELP INCREASE THE SPREAD OF INFECTIOUS DISEASES!!!!! And that's why y'all in WISC. are allowed to use them. Ever hear of this disease call Chronic Wasting Disease???? :eek:

Disease!!!! That's what it's ALL ABOUT!!!!

Tx.
If it wasn't in your screen-name, I'd have known where you were from anyhow based on your responses. You don't hunt bait piles of feeders do you???? :eek: (because I think I already know this answer!!! :D ) If you think a corn field is the same as a bait pile or a feeder, you are SADLY mistaken. If it were "JUST THAT EASY," I'd have a wall full of Booners, but it ain't just that easy. And I'd rather not see corn up, I'm a much bigger fan of Soy Beans, because deer can't hide in them. Not sure if you knew this, but our corn up here is FIELD CORN, it grows to 8-10ft high in MANY places, and our deer, contrary to popular believe, AREN'T quite that big. If corn is up, I have to change my hunting plan completely vs. beans being planted. And being a Bow-only hunter, a corn field don't put deer within range as long as they're where they can eat corn, give me a feeder or a bait pile, and any deer eating IS "within range."


Are bait piles BAD??? Form your own opinion, but if you start having outbreaks of bovine tuberculosis, and 40% of your population dies off, then you may be in the opinion that they are. If blue tongue (EHD) were a contagious disease that could be passed from animal to animal, then a larger number of deer would die in areas that are stricken with it each year, including my areas last year, fortunately it is not. But BAIT PILES congregate deer in close proximity, and increase spread of disease, plain and simple. You wouldn't want to be crammed into and elevator with 3 or 4 people with colds that kept coughing and not covering their face would you???? Want to drink after someone with a nasty cold sore on their mouth????? No thanks!!!!

RE: Just Have To Say
 

Thats what i mean! No matter where or how much, the corn is corn! the pile just makes it easier, for both hunter and deer!

RE: Just Have To Say
 

I know Jeff, I was just trying to help people make the connection that a food source is a food source, whether it was planted there for someone to make a living from, planted there specifically to attract deer, grew from a single acorn 30 years prior, or was purchased at the local feed mill and dumped out.

I think people need to look at broader pictures when discussing baiting. Obviously is the disease thing. But then also some should realize, when EVERY tree over the course of a property is dumping acorns, it is 10x harder to figure out the deer compared to when 1 or 2 localized areas are producing. So if a situation came about where EVERYONE was baiting, food is plentiful, deer don’t have to move much or compete, works in reverse for the hunter.

RE: Just Have To Say
 

Welcome to NC Ryan!!!!!!!!!!!

LOl....seriously....I know ONE other hunter who doesn't bait deer on the properties they hunt. EVERY OTHER hunter I know who hunts NC baits. I kid you not.;)

RE: Just Have To Say
 

disease isn't a problem here in Tx. I haven't heard of a single case of CWD or blue tounge. And if you had read all of my posts you would know I don't deer hunt over feeders. I concentrate on oak flats. I do supplemental feeding and I hog hunt over feeders. Because I don't have the luxury of ag crops I do what I can to keep deer on the property I hunt. Feeders are legal in Tx. I will continue to use them and you can continue to condemn me for it. If disease shows up I'll stop but until such a time I won't sweat it. HMMMMMmmmmm.......... I wonder if ya'lls deer are just to weak to stay healthy?

RE: Just Have To Say
 

if that is the case, so is water, which technicaly it is bait, but IF your in the big woods like me, water holes are natural so to me if its natural i dont mind, but i wouldnt take 50 pounds of corn and a week later come back and hunt that pile, i would use corn for trail cams, but i dont use them, but if i found a seclued corn field or any corn field i would hunt it, hunting any kind of food source, beans, corn, grass, moss, whate ever, its all bait, so unless you only hunt the trails, that the deer are using you are hunting over or with the aid of bait, but to me aslong as your not dumping a pile of corn all over the ground and hunting it i dont mind. so i am trying to say dont go over board on the whole bait thing, if the food is natural (not meant for deer, other animal ie cattle) then who cares

RE: Just Have To Say
 

Or, the deer may start to equate bait piles to danger and skirt around them. BIG BUCKS often times don't hit bait piles, or do so well after dark, from what I understand and I know a few people who bait here in OH, but the rest of us HUNT!!!! ;) I say that with some sarcasm, but seriously, if all you had to do is ride your quad by your feeder a couple times a week and throw a 50# bag of corn in it, then when season comes climb into a stand and shoot your deer of choice, doesn't that take some of the "HUNT" out of it. I just don't see the "hunt" side to it. I know technically it's "hunting," but for me, I scout out a woods, pick a couple "probable" spots, and come back with a climber on my back, or I stalk through a woods, bow in hand, and try to sneak in on a travel corridor, lean against a tree, and stick one. I find ground hunting, on the move much more EXCITING than stand hunting, however, I find the success rates tend to not be nearly as good also, considering GOOD STAND PLACEMENT.

Jeff,
The number of people HERE that I know that bait, I can count on one hand. Most of the guys I know hunt travel corridors, oak flats, orchards, funnels, etc., myself included.

RE: Just Have To Say
 

Doesn't take long!

I suppose you mean a doe....because you've already established big bucks won't come to it.

I don't mean this in a bad way.....but I'm guessing "other" hunters don't give a flip about what YOU (or I) consider "hunting" or not. Nor should they.

RE: Just Have To Say
 

Doug those reasons are exactly why I don't hunt deer over the feeders. I wouldn't get the same sense of accomplishment or satisfaction that I figured them out. I don't have a lot of bow kills under my belt but I know I do like to make things a bit more challenging. My most exciting hunt so far was a doe killed under an oak tree. I was sitting on the ground with acorns falling all around me. I thought it might be a good place to try.
However I won't condemn a man for whatever legal means he employs.

RE: Just Have To Say
 

And I understand THIS, but in Wisconsin, it IS!!! I'm not condemning baiting completely, though I WON'T do it, I understand, that there are places, TX, NC, SC, etc, that baiting/feeders are more or less the "norm." If I'd grown up learning to shoot deer under a feeder, I'd probably have a different opinion, likewise, if I grown up Jewish, I probably wouldn't be a Lutheran. :D Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying "You're a lousy excuse for a hunter because you bait," I have seen some of TX, and there are places down there where I think I'd bait just to get the deer out of the brush, its a whole different type of terrain and vegetation, and I know and understand that. What I AM saying is that there is a HUGE difference between a feeder/bait pile and a corn field. Comparing the two is like comparing apples to bananas, and leaving oranges out of the equation completely.

I think some of the issue with the "diseased" animals was known to come from "Deer farms," with the CWD, but the EHD is a little protazoan that thrives in stagnant water, and with our drought year last year, it reared its ugly head, quite severely in many areas. It's not contagious, from deer to deer, but found in the drinking water.

I agree Greg, like I said, I'm not "condemning it," but the comparison is completely different, that's more of my point I'm trying to make. My most exciting hunt was also a doe, a doe I grown to know intimately, and passed up a couple of times, once she cost me an opportunity at a legitimate 170-180" 12-pt BOONER. From that point, she was my PRIME target. I was lucky enough to arrow her the following year on the day after Christmas with 15 other deer within 50yds of me, she was THE HERD MATRIARCH, and arrowing her was as exciting as any buck I've ever killed. We're not that far apart, on this, it's just some small semantics, that's all.

RE: Just Have To Say
 

That oughta clear it up.

I'm with ya! :D

RE: Just Have To Say
 

OK, I concede that there are HUGE differences. can you concede that there are also similarities?

RE: Just Have To Say
 

The difference is the size. The similarities are --- everything else.

RE: Just Have To Say
 

No, the difference is that for BOWHUNTING purposes, a big CUT CORN FIELD is open terrain with NO COVER for a hunter to attempt to get close, which usually means little to no chance for success. And deer are NOT stupid. I've rarely been able to perfectly pattern deer on ag-fields in most of the areas I hunt, because they don't have patterns much of the time. Like I said before, if it were that easy, I'd have a wall full of BOONERS, because I KNOW where there are some, but getting within arrow range just ain't that easy. The only similarity is that it's a FOOD SOURCE, beyond that, a corn field can be more difficult to hunt than a stand of woods, because at least the woods give you avenues of approach.

RE: Just Have To Say
 

OK, I can't argue that. I have zero experience hunting ag fields. My only knowledge of patterning deer in ag areas is info I have read. I'll get back to you on food plots if mine have grown by Sept 27th!;)

RE: Just Have To Say
 

Sheeeww! Thanks for that breath of fresh air. This is what I'm talking about when I say that feeders/corn pilesbring them to a "SPECIFIC SPOT", unlike a fieldwhere they can enter from any one of a hundred directions, and have a"CHOICE" of where they want to feed.

RE: Just Have To Say
 

Well all in all, i love the responses, and this is a BIG topic, but to each thier own, i believe we should be able to bait under careful guidelines, and let it be. we are not doing anything different then farmers but reducing the size of the crop!