Bending at the waist? Contorted?
 

As the season draws nearer....I'm not advocating ANYTHING other than proper form when shooting from ANY position. I'm simply on a fact-finding mission to satisfy my own curiosity.

I am one who centers my sighthousing (which is round and is proportionate to my peep at full draw)in my peep housing to aim. I get a small "halo" when at full draw around the perimeter of my sight housing. No revelation, here, as a lot of guys use this method.

My question is......(and for the scenario depicted.....we'll assume the bow is plumb).....

As long as I keep the halo......what difference does it make if I bend at the waist or not when drawing a bead on my target?

Thanks!

RE: Bending at the waist? Contorted?
 

Your fulcrum point designates your drawl length. hence bending any where but at the waist will shorten ,when shooting from a tree down or lengthen when shooting from the ground up at a steep angle ,as in elk or sheep hunting.

RE: Bending at the waist? Contorted?
 

Jeff it's your anchor that changes.

If you draw a triangle from your anchor to your eye out to your sights and back to your anchor then change your form other than anything than bending at the waist, ie dropping your arm, that triangle changes ergo, your anchor changes.

Think about it this way, If I took your bow, I could halo your peep/sight the same but my POI may be totally different because we anchor differently.

You may not even realize your anchoring differently just to get that halo effect but indeed you are.

Go out and practice it, bend at the waist on one shot from an elevated position, then shoot one standing upright but simply lower your arm but keep the halo effect. I'll lay $ you'll shoot high on your second shot.

RE: Bending at the waist? Contorted?
 

I'm just trying to understand this guys. I'm not discounting your logic. I shoot my son's bow all the time to help him sight it in. Would this not be the same thing (different draw lengths) as what you're asking me to do?

Where does the "triangle" come into play? Aren't we talking about one straight line, or "conical cylinder" from the peep through the housing.....no matter what else? If that's maintained......I'm just having trouble picturing how it could morph. I could see how....at extreme angles.....the peep "cylinder" could morph and become less "cylindrical"....and the same could occur at the sight housing.

RE: Bending at the waist? Contorted?
 

Think of it this way Jeff.............you could conceivably turn your hand upside down before you attach your release to the string, draw back and find a way to get the peep into alignment with your sight housing.
That doesn't mean the arrow is going to go exactly where you want it.
Keeping your same anchor is vitally important like Rob mentioned.
You draw and set your anchor then move YOUR BODY to the target mainaining that anchor.

It's not a gun where front sight + rear sight = bullseye as long as they're lined up. How your hand relates to your face and how that arrow comes off is a big part of it. This is the reason I can't take my buddy Frank's bow set at 26.5" and expect to hit the same place he does even though I have those 2 circles (peep and housing) perfectly aligned.

The whole bend at the waist is a 'Do the best you can" to keeping your alignment. We're not Gumby so it's impossible to just bend at the waist , and hold perfect T alignment to the targtet.
The goal is to keep it as close to where you were on level ground.
You just don't want to stand dead erect and simply drop your bow arm down to the target and draw........you have no chance to repeat your level ground anchor.

RE: Bending at the waist? Contorted?
 

I guess this is where I'm having trouble understanding, Matt. It seems in MY head like it should be this way....barring hand torque or some other extenuating circumstance.

Again I'm just trying to learn something here.....and I can't fathom why the arrow wouldn't go where it's been programmed to go if they are aligned.

Would the angle be the problem.....say if you had torqued the string down or up to make the two align? Would thisbe the issue?

RE: Bending at the waist? Contorted?
 

With a rifle you take the anchor point (factor) out of the equation. With archery equipment it is all about anchor point, however unless you are talking a severe angle and you are not trying to achieve pin point accuracy it won't affect your arrow travel tremendously....

RE: Bending at the waist? Contorted?
 

It's all in the anchor point Jeff, remember, you can take the peep out of the equation as well as long as the anchor point is constant. It's the golden triangle of anchor, eye and sight pin. Change the anchor, you change POI.

Take my buddy Nate and I, we're both seasoned shooters right? I take his bow, his 30 yard pin is dead on for me at 20 yards even though I align his peep with his sight housing. He has to hold my 20 low. Even though we center the peep with the sight housing, we anchor differently.

RE: Bending at the waist? Contorted?
 

Let me ask it another way.....

THE reason for a peep is to establish "an" anchor point/reference, right?

Let's think......oh I dunno......Jawshooter to explore my question;)

RE: Bending at the waist? Contorted?
 

Rob’s been saying it very well. Not sure if what I’m about to add will help. The biggest concept to grasp is that it’s not lining up 2 references like a gun.

A peep helps to add consistency. But you need several items all working together to achieve absolute repeatability IMO. For me its kisser, peep & nose to string that helps me when tossed into a treestand-hunting moment situation.

Using me as an example.
Yard- all anchor point verifications are readily (& easily) repeated. I feel the kisser, look thru peep & center the housing, feel the string touching my nose. My hand feels like its in the right spot against my jaw. Thwap-bullseye.

Treestand- Deer below me. I feel the kisser, but is it EXACTLY were it needs to be? I have a thin facemask on now.
Housing still centered in peep. Hand feels like the right spot, but I have gloves on. String is touching my nose, but its cold & my nose is numb. Maybe I’m putting too much pressure? All these little things can add up to make the shot a little less accurate, because the anchor is not exactly the same, but like Matt said, we are doing the best we can in the situation. So you can see here, that the only true constant is my peep housing relationship, but that does not guarantee me a perfect shot.

RE: Bending at the waist? Contorted?
 

Let's take the archer out of the equation.

Let's use a hooter shooter. Now assuming the hooter shooter can align the sight pin housing in the peep ...NO MATTER THE "angle".....and not put torque on the string (or bow)in any direction......

How can the arrow NOT go where the pin has it for the desired distance?

Isn't the whole point of the peep to add "another" anchor reference.....or to assure the archer that he's anchoring consistantly in the same place, each time? Same can be said for the kisser, the archer's nose, the place the rest hits the side of the face, etc...?

But when it's all said and done.....these extra anchor references are designed to make sure we're aligning the sight pin housing in the peep the same way, each time. No?

I used Jawshooter for the example for a reason. He doesn't have the luxury of the aforementioned additional anchor references. If he aligns the sight pin housing in the peep the same way each time......and doesn't torque the string or the bow.......how can his arrow NOT go where it's intended to for a desired distance?

I fully understand the need for additional anchor references for consistancy.......but in a perfect shooting environment...my question still remains. If the sight housing and the peep are aligned the same way each time....how can the arrow stray?

If your contention is that it's impossible for the archer to NOT put torque on the string or the bow when not bending from the waist.....then you've introduced the human element. I'm seeking to find out the Physics behind my question.

I'm imagining aiming from a treestand at a deer 15 yds out.....and then having that deer take two steps towards the archer (on an angle), cutting the distance by 2yds. Instead of bending at the waist (which we all agree is the proper technique).....could the archer simply squat with his knees to maintain the proper angle?

There is a point to my question....;)

RE: Bending at the waist? Contorted?
 

Jeff.

What happens when you lower your arm you actually move the string away from your nose, then to get the string back on your nose you slightly tilt your head forwardwhich will bring everything back into alignment right?

No it's wrong because now that you have done that your release hand is not at it's normal anchor it will be slightlylower and a tad furtherbackon your face.

Thus making the shot go hot on the target even tho the peep and pins are lined up.

RE: Bending at the waist? Contorted?
 

Then you've torqued the string, right?

RE: Bending at the waist? Contorted?
 

Even with a Hooter Shooter there is a constant anchor, the anchor cannot be taken out of the equation. The anchor point is the most important part of the equation. You can remove the peep, you can remove the sight, you cannot remove the anchor. You can align the peep with the sight housing in a Hooter Shooter, then raise the release aid and still align the peep with the sight housing but the POI changed because the anchor position changed.

RE: Bending at the waist? Contorted?
 

Because you've torqued the string, right?

RE: Bending at the waist? Contorted?
 

Don't worry Jeff, Your not the only one that doesn't understand what they are saying. lol



The peep is always the same distance from the arrow right? And so it the sight? The only time this would change is if you "pulling" the string higher or lower, am I correct? So from what I can understand, if you just lower your bow arm, and align your peep with your sight housing, it will still not be aligned the same as before, because you are either pulling up or down on the string (which would most likely be down in this instance) thus reducing or increasing the distance between the peep and the arrow?

RE: Bending at the waist? Contorted?
 

The right kind of question always gets the right kind of response. If you discover that you're not getting the right answers, it's time to bone up the art of effective questioning.

I thought this might help.;)

RE: Bending at the waist? Contorted?
 

NO!!! The point of a peep is to see through your string, it is not a good anchor point at all!!!! When the center shot bows came on the market, the peep provided a way to see through your string...I never recommend to any of the guys I have worked with to use a peep as a anchor as there are too many variables with it!!!!

RE: Bending at the waist? Contorted?
 

I said anchor REFERENCE. I never siad it was an anchor point.

RE: Bending at the waist? Contorted?
 

I don't recommend using it for anything other than seeing through your string!!!!

RE: Bending at the waist? Contorted?
 

Texas......

Slide your peep up 1" and see if your peep isn't an anchor REFERENCE.

;)

If an archer could utilize the same anchor point EVERY TIME....he'd have absolutely NO use for a peep.

RE: Bending at the waist? Contorted?
 

I disagree,The said archerwould usethe peepto see through the string to get a clear field of view....You made my point very valid with that statement;)

RE: Bending at the waist? Contorted?
 

Answered my own question???? Where?....lol

How do archers who don't utilize a peep shoot consistantly? I'd like to get germ's take on this....along with the Matt's and Rob. Sliver? TFOX? Others???

RE: Bending at the waist? Contorted?
 

Yeah, I revised that statement!!!

I never said an archer couldn't shoot consistantly w/o a peep, I know plenty that do and do it well....I am just making the point that a peep is not a consistant anchor reference...It just opens the field of view for an archer that chooses to shoot center shot...

RE: Bending at the waist? Contorted?
 

Of course it is.

RE: Bending at the waist? Contorted?
 

Nope!!!! If I slide my peep up the string will be in my field of view, that being said I could move my sight a hair to the right or left (which ever way)and get around my string and still maintain all my anchor references and shoot just as good as I could before!!!!

RE: Bending at the waist? Contorted?
 

If it isn't a point of anchor reference.....why is it WHERE it is on your bowstring? Let's take "why" it's there out of the equation.

Thanks!

RE: Bending at the waist? Contorted?
 

The peep is WHERE it is to allow an archer to see his or her pins through the string. It is where it is b/c that is how your eye lines up in reference to your sight pins once you are already anchored...

Before they had peeps, I shot around my string using the same references that I do today.

The reason a peep is not a good anchor point is b/c they are too big and allow too much room for error, if you were to use a really small peep (which a lot of archers do in the competition side of it) then it would become a better anchor reference but then you would not be able to see your game except in perfect lighting situations....

RE: Bending at the waist? Contorted?
 

Thank you;)

RE: Bending at the waist? Contorted?
 

You should draw back to a solid consistant anchor point. THEN you should put your peep at the proper height to allow you to see through your string.

The peep is WHERE it is, because your eye is a certain height above your anchor point.

If you only lower your bow arm and tilt your head down, the entire geometry of the sight system changes. You need to move your head and bow arm around the same pivot point. Bending at the waist provides the best practicalcommon pivot point for your head and bow arm. If you don't bend at the waist, youlower your bow arm around a different pivot than your lower your head, and when you do that, all the angles change if you were to draw the sight lines out on a sheet of paper.

RE: Bending at the waist? Contorted?
 

I don't disagree with anything you're saying. But these statements beg the question....

If you got drawn back and settled into your anchors.....and found that your peep and sight housing didn't align.....you'd know one of two things:

1. Your peep has moved.

or

2. You're not anchored in the proper position.

So....knowing that....HOW is the peep not an anchor reference?

RE: Bending at the waist? Contorted?
 

Your Welcome;)

RE: Bending at the waist? Contorted?
 

So....knowing that....HOW is the peep not an anchor reference?

B/C I can get all my anchor points/referencesout of whack and still wiggle around to see perfectly through my peep and center my sights and shoot like hell!!!!! But you do what you want, I just hate for any new archers to read this and think as long as they can see their sights through their peep that they are good!!!!

RE: Bending at the waist? Contorted?
 

Your first sentence proves my point in the original question.;) If you're not torquing the string.....the arrow will go where the sight pin housing and the peep align. It's not how you would teach onyone to shoot....but it's where the arrow's going if they're aligned.

If you can see your sight through your peep (correct halo)...it has no bearing on whether you're anchored correctly, or not. It's only showing you where the arrow is gonna go.

Your scenario speaks NOTHING of being anchored properly. To sight a bow in you have to utilize a consistant anchor. Once it's sighted in, though.......it's going where they align.

How did you sight your bow in?

Also....I NEVER said the peep was THE anchor reference. I think if you'll go back....I said it was "an" (even used quotes, I think;)) anchor reference.

RE: Bending at the waist? Contorted?
 

One problem is that you can not keep the sight centered properly if you don't bend at the waist.When you change your anchors,you will move the site alignment out of center.

Another problem is that you change the distance from your eye with the peepwhen you drop your arm,which changes pin gap and changes the size of the halo.It also changes draw length.


BUT,imo,if it is possible,(which imo,it is not) to keep everything centered,then the arrow will hit where it is aimed.The answer is it is a trick question because it isn't possble.

RE: Bending at the waist? Contorted?
 

Hear me out, T....cause I was waiting on you to respond!:)

I disagree.....but hear me out;)

THAT I agree with.

Why I love your posts.;) Interesting point I hadn't thought of. It would only change draw length, though....IF you torqued the bowstring, right?

I don't disagree.....BECAUSE we're adding in the human element. Shot from a hooter shooter though (which is only interested in ONE anchor point....and that one IS consistant)....the premise is valid, no???

RE: Bending at the waist? Contorted?
 

The peep shouldn't be utilized as an anchoring reference,it should be utilized only as an aiming reference.Your anchors SHOULD dictate where the peep is located. BUT.in theory,it is possble for the peep to be used to check anchors but that isn't the way it should be utilized,the anchors should be second nature imo.

RE: Bending at the waist? Contorted?
 

What's the difference? If your peep is "off"....and you're not using it as an anchoring reference....how would you know it was "off" (once set)?

RE: Bending at the waist? Contorted?
 

If the bow was shot from a hooter shooter,you would have to tilt the whole thing,which is exactly what we are supposed to be doing when we bend at the waist.


Your peep has depth,which means it is a 3 dimensional object.When your anchors change and you try to look through it higher or lower from an angle,the peep will essentially not be round anymore and cause you to center off the front of the peep on the top and the back of the peep on the bottom so it is impossible to maintaing the same halo when you drop your arm instead of bending at the waist.

RE: Bending at the waist? Contorted?
 

That is why I posted the rest of my response.;)