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RE: Speed is all you need! (?)
 

This is where I need to jump in again.....

If with this statement you mean that momentum is important but also that a certain level of speed is necessary in order to maintain a relatively flat trajectory then I agree with you.

However, if you are implying that a 650 grain arrow traveling at 200 fps is in some way " better" in terms of a total practical hunting setup in comparison with a 425 grain arrow traveling at 270 fps then I really have to disagree.

Again, it takes a moderate amount of speed, kinetic energy and momentum to work in tandem in order to create more of an ideal combination for a variety of bowhunting situations. As I made mention of in another post...what good is alot of speed without the mass behind it to provide penetration?...what good is a ton of mass if the arrow arcs like a rainbow and the archer cannot judge distance?

You need a good combination of all three of these characteristics in order to have a good all-around setup.

RE: Speed is all you need! (?)
 

For me, yes. The 650 grain arrow at 200 fps or so is better, because that is what I like. A 425 grain arrow at 270 fps is fine and I know it will do the job on most anything in North America, as will mine. But I guarantee if I had the chance to vote on making a 400 grain minimum arrow weight for hunting, I' d be checking the YES box. Yes, even for light draw weight bows. Arrow mass comes into play for light draw bows because they lack energy.

Some well seasoned shooters are capable of tuning and controlling broadheads with those sub-400 grain toothpicks out of high poundage rigs and are capable of using them in the woods. From what I' ve seen over the past 6-7 years of conducting proficiency tests for a local WMA, the guys that can handle that speed would number less than one in 500, maybe less than one in a thousand. What expert shooters ' need' and what the average shooter can get away with are way different things. The below average shooter would be a danger to everyone and everything in the woods with a 345 fps setup!

Like I said before, speed is fine as long as you can control it. But there are far more people who would be far better off shooting 250 fps and under than there are that can shoot 300 fps and over.

RE: Speed is all you need! (?)
 

I cannot argue with that Arthur but then there are also those folks that would probably do just fine shooting in the 250 to 300 fps range if they just practiced a bit more...:)

Exactly. I have heard you make mention of this on several occasions...but I have also heard that you are good at judging distance. Though the gain may be only slightly more than marginal I still believe it offers enough of an advantage without having to trade off other important concerns such as a quiet bow, penetration, etc....

RE: Speed is all you need! (?)
 

Frank, that word ' IF' is a tiny little thing, but it' s got a lot of meaning to it.

It' s true that " IF" many people practiced more, they could handle faster equipment. Only problem is, most don' t (or won' t) make time for practice. Dedicated bowhunters and archers shoot because they enjoy it, but the vast majority of people in the woods these days are NOT dedicated bowhunters. Most are absolutely NOT dedicated archers. To them, it' s nothing more than a way to get out in the woods before gun season. Shooting for practice sounds like work to them rather than something to get out and enjoy just for it' s own sake.

High speed is fine for those that enjoy it and are good enough to handle it. Problem is, they are a small fraction of all those that hit the woods. For those of you that are good enough, congratulations. Us mere mortals stand in awe of your prowess.:D

I' ll make a deal with whoever thinks everyone needs speed. I' ll shoot your high speed bow if you' ll take a 10 mile hike wearing my size 15 AA boots. Then we can sit back and discuss how certain things fit certain people and not fit others at all.

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RE: Speed is all you need! (?)
 

Sometimes Arthur..your sense of humor really gets me going....:D . You should be the last person trying to throw yourself in with " mere mortals" with your 7 foot frame and gargantuan arms.....:D

I cannot argue with the suggestion that a majority of the bowhunters out there are seasonal shooters at best but your comments bring something else to mind. With the relatively consistant increases in speed over the years that speed range that you are quoting as " too fast" might eventually be considered " slow" by comparison to what could potentially be obtained with new designs in limbs, strings, cams, etc.... Then a person will be able to shoot a 600 grain arrow at 270 fps and get the best of both of our worlds. What would you say to them then? Is 270 fps still too fast if there is a heavy arrow to back it up?

Finally,

I think I almost fit your criteria in terms of speed and shoe size. I will take you up on that....:D

Krisken,

Even though my own favorite hunting weight arrows fall close to that 400 grain mark I cannot honestly say that they will work for every setup out there. Sure the 400 grain minimum might help with those folks who are shooting arrows that are not generating enough KE or momentum but, on the other hand saying that a 400 grain arrow is the heaviest that one should shoot really puts too much emphasis on the trajectory differences for the various arrow weights that are currently used.

RE: Speed is all you need! (?)
 

400 grain standard??? For who??? I' ll stick with my 700 grain standard with 14%FOC. It is something that I always seem to come back to. Granted, I get the itch to try other stuff like the light carbons. A few years back I used a 400 grain arrow for a year. And guess what? I got a cracked limb, I couldn' t get the fixed broadheads to fly very straight, and I couldn' t pull them out of a target for beans. Granted the trajectory was real nice on them compared to the heavy arrows and they flew very fast. But the trade off was just not there, since I couldn' t get the accuracy that I wanted. Judging distance is not a problem for me, and as long as you are farily accurate in judging distance, everything works out fine with a heavy arrow. If you can' t judge within about 4 yards, then you may have a problem. Just to be sure, I always take my range finder in the woods with me and take readings on stationary objects. Not really a problem at all. And I think that the judging didtance thing gets way overdone as an arguement not to use heavier arrows traveling at lower speeds.

I will ackowledge though that the light weight arrows do work for certain individuals. My advice though is to be honest with yourself as to your ability. You will be much happier if you do. I have been at this for 23 years now, and still don' t feel confortable shooting light speedy arrows while hunting.

RE: Speed is all you need! (?)
 

I have tried to keep up reading all the posts since this began, AND tried to keep them sorted in my pea brain (tough task at times). What I have come to the conclusion of is this.

1. That to each his own.:D That in the proper hands (properly set up) the faster/lighter setup will gain the shooter certain advantages and be a leathal weapon, BUT in the less skilled hands(i.e. poor shooting mechanics), the same set up can be a dangerous weapon which is more likely to maim or wound an animal than kill it[:' (]. Conversly, a slower/heavier set up (properly set up) will gain the shooter certain (albeit different) advantages and be a leathal weapon, BUT in the less skilled hands (i.e. poor distance judge), the same setup can be a dangerous weapon which is more likely to maim or wound an animal than kill it[:' (]. There for, use the setup you can consistantly shoot good and achieve proper arrow placement with and when you are done practicing go out and practice some more.

2. That we as a bowhunting community have failed to reach a concensus on the optimal measurement for effectivly doing the work we ask our bows and arrows to do. :( You have all discussed many valid points, each with its merits, each with its flaws (whether admitted or not), but none of which are able to accuratly measure a standard which will apply in the mass majority of the cases. Speed, KE, momentum all factor in and PA said it well, BUT in what combination do they achieve the optimum? (Thats what the debates about isn' t it) Until we do achieve the measurement, we will have to fall back to #1 and use what we are best capable with. I have yet to see someone address the issues as we progress down range (maybe I missed it) knowing we lose speed and energy as we go. I guess that gets back into the momentum issue, but how are we measuring it at the point of impact where it matters? And does this accuratly relfect what we need to know?

3. I know that a well place rock from a sling shot is capable of killing, but will it do the job in an ethical and quick manner with a relatively high degree of success? In hunting, each of us has our own beliefs and dergees of ethics and each of us will defend our position as the right one. All of us, if admitted, have seen shots (distance, angles, obscured, etc.) in the hunting community (either vidio, tv, or in person) that we believe never should have been attempted (in our ethical view) while also seeing shots passed up on that we believe we could have easily acchomplished. Should we allow our capabilities to override or change our views on the ethicallity of a particualr shot (i.e the fast/light thinking " I can out shoot the deers reactions if it were to jump the string" or the slower/heavier thinking " I can only see the back edge of the shoulder, but I can drive right through should the deer move and I hit the shoulder blade" ). I don' t believe out ethics should be changed with or by our equipment. Skill may change our ability, but should not change our ethical view of a particular shot.

My biggest fear in the whole debate is that a person will try to shoot a setup that they are not proficient at because they side with someones elses beliefs.

After 15 years of bowhunting, I know what works for me.:DBut, it has taken that long to know what works within my capabilities. Confidence in a set up goes a long way, confidence in your set up.

If it' s sharp, and it' s placed right, does it matter if it goes through by a foot of by 10 yards...oops...there I go again...that' s what we' re debating... but how do we accurately measure what and arrow will actually do upon impact?

Stay with it though, I' m up for learning even more! ;)

RE: Speed is all you need! (?)
 

I totally agree with ya on the BH issue but I am just saying that if for a moment we agree that we shoot both bows equally well I would want a faster one over a slow one.


AS stated before but I will reverse because we can

" mass without speed means NOTHING either" :D:D

I guess it all comes down to what we all prefer and will justify what we use. I just like the speed and the confidence in what I use gives me in the field.

Brian