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Serious Rut Question (lengthy read)
Here it is guys. As I'm sure some of you know, I'll be hunting in the Edmonton Bow Zonefrom Nov 24-29 this year. I want you to put yourself in my shoes.
I'm a FIRM believer in hunting ALL DAY during the rut, as the biggest buck I've ever seen was rattled in at 12:05 PM 3 years ago while I was huntingin Alberta. That guide was also a believer in hunting all day. Here's where my question comes in to play. Last year I hunted with a different guide, the one I'll hunt with again this year. He is known throughout the Bow Zone as "the man" in this region for big bucks. He has the #2 typical bow killed whitetail (192" net)in all of Alberta! He knows this area! His walls are full of proof of his success. However, he doesn't think sitting in the same stand all day is the best way to kill a big buck.Hehas his hunters dropped off (via electric quad) before first light, and picked up around 11:00 AM, brought back to the lodge for an awesome meal, then your second shower of the day (likes his hunters to shower 3 times a day), and dropped off at a different stand site around 1:00PMfor the evening hunt, until dark. He says doing it this way keeps an area from becoming contaminated. It makes sense, but I see it as2 hours a day, times 6 days, equaling 12 hours of lost hunting time for the week.Am I looking at this the wrong way? Also, spending $4200 for the hunt, would yourequest to hunt the wayYOU want, or would you go with his "program"? I hunted his way all week last year. I saw good bucks from all but one stand site. I hunted 11 different sites. I just look at the "down time" as equaling another days hunt, that's where I'm coming from.[&:] |
RE: Serious Rut Question (lengthy read)
Thats a tough one Jeff! I guess he knows his stuff and maybe thats enough right there to take his word for it. But then again If it was me (IMHO) I would think the opposite and hunt the same stand all day. Less going in and out means something too!
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RE: Serious Rut Question (lengthy read)
That is a tough one. The guy obviously has the place laid out well and has has personal success as well as his reputation. I think the issue you run into would be that he knows the area, produces results and ultimately feels that his rules and procedures help preserve the integrity of the area. I went on an Elk trip with the ex Father-In-Law and ran into the same philosophy and didn't get the animal I wanted, sure I got a decent 5x4 but I wanted a shot at a better animal.
Have you discussed it with him and raised your concern that you have seen great deer when they are in lunch and shower mode? I know I voiced my concern and the guide service we used in CO allowed us to hunt cows without the guide a couple of days. If he says no then you have a decision to make, do you hunt the way you want or trust his tecniques? I for one would rather get a lease somewhere and hunt my way but then again I have only been on one guided hunt and didn't walk away satisfied. |
RE: Serious Rut Question (lengthy read)
Early, I'm thinkin' that $4200 gives you the right to do what ever the heck you want :). . .but with credentials like his, I'd givehis method a try for the first 3 days . . .if I have a tag after that, it's my way for the remainder of the trip. If I had only 3 or 4 days, it'd be a different story.
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RE: Serious Rut Question (lengthy read)
WOW, between a rock and a hard place. Sounds like he is the man and knows his stuff but then again all day hunts during the rut are very common practice. IMO bucks lose some of that edge during this time of year that could get them killed from making mistakes, and those magic between hours are great chances of scoring. Sounds like hunting all day might make tension so you will probbly be better off doing it his way. he has been very successful so keep that in mind. :)and the best of luck to you when you go. score a bigun ;)
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RE: Serious Rut Question (lengthy read)
I would go with the man on this one. Just because you like to sit all day in one stand does not mean that stand is going to be hot anytime that day while you are there. The hottest location to be at may be one ridge over or on the other stand of timber.
If it is the rut an I am in an area that is not producing to me that area is cold an I need to go to the next good area that I feel like is my next best bet. If I get in that area an the deer are moving an seeing some nice deer I would have a hard time leaving. So, there you go started out seeing the mans view an endedup typing myway into your view. Oh well, good luck I am not able to go right now. |
RE: Serious Rut Question (lengthy read)
ORIGINAL: AR Bowhunter I would go with the man on this one. Just because you like to sit all day in one stand does not mean that stand is going to be hot anytime that day while you are there. The hottest location to be at may be one ridge over or on the other stand of timber. If it is the rut an I am in an area that is not producing to me that area is cold an I need to go to the next good area that I feel like is my next best bet. If I get in that area an the deer are moving an seeing some nice deer I would have a hard time leaving. So, there you go started out seeing the mans view an endedup typing myway into your view. Oh well, good luck I am not able to go right now.  |
RE: Serious Rut Question (lengthy read)
ANY time I walk into another man's woods.....I'm gonna defer to THE expert.
HIM |
RE: Serious Rut Question (lengthy read)
ORIGINAL: GMMAT ANY time I walk into another man's woods.....I'm gonna defer to THE expert. HIM Being the paying customer should give you the right to choose how you hunt but, at the same time, you lose the right to be upset at him or cast blame his wayif you didnt score. Not implying you would complain. Personally, Idgo with his tactic. |
RE: Serious Rut Question (lengthy read)
I'm not going to argue with the man's success, but I don't agree with his way at all. Now, I'm a guide myself and I expect people to hunt my way when their with me.....and I let them know that up front. I have also turned guys away and told them that I wouldn't guide them because they wanted to hunt differently than I do. It saved a lot of conflicts.
Honestly Jeff, if you don't like the way he hunts, I would find a different outfitter. Its your money and I think you can find a reputable guide that hunts more to your style. Not to mention you're paying for a 6 or 7 day hunt and only getting 5 or 6 in the woods. |
RE: Serious Rut Question (lengthy read)
need more details...
How big of area does he have access to ? How many otherhunters besides you the week you hunted ? Was he putting other hunters in stands in the afternoon thatyou hunted in the morning ? What time of the day did you see the good bucks from the stand sites? I can see him doing it this way for a few reasons. 1. Some spots are better for morning hunts then afternoon hunts and visa versa. I seldom will hunt the same area all day since I have a lot of acreageand better spots in the afternoon. Some spots are only good morning spots. 2. Getting you out of a stand for a small breakand fed helps tokeep youfrom getting antsy from being stiff,cold and tired. 3. Wind direction changes or thermals 4. Over hunting an area when other spots are better ( see #1 ) 5. Because it is what works for him and he wants you coming back in future years. Down side to his way... 1. Loss of hunting time. 2. Deer patterning hunters leaving and coming to standsthe same time every dayfor your shower/dinnerbreak ( Why I want more details on the last twoquestions ) 3. Contaiminating the areas by going in and out during the day ( every day )if the stands are good for bothAM andPM hunts for all day sits. Why I want to know if other hunters hunt your morning stand in the afternoon. While I agree with Jeff that it is his woods, he calls the shots... I am curious and find this very interesting. Half the fun of a hunt is the plotting that goes into it. Tim |
RE: Serious Rut Question (lengthy read)
Thats a tough call to make and I guess it all comes down to how strongly you feel about siiting in one stand all day verses breaking for a couple hours then hunting a different stand,if this guy knows the area and is as good as you claim you might want to take his advice,then again no one can predict when a monster buck will appear if they could it wouldn't be much of a challenge would it.don't take this the wrong way,but maybe because you killed one of the biggest bucks you have ever taken at midday you are letting that influence you more than anything and if I remember corectly you said it was rattled in,not exactly normal buck movement,and what about the times you sat all day and seen nothing during midday,but I do get what you are saying I wouldn't want to make that decesion.
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RE: Serious Rut Question (lengthy read)
couple more questions...
How many stands sites does he run?? Does he move the stand sites aroundin a certainarea on where " you "are seeingbuck activity or are the stands setup and stay there the whole time you hunt?? No tweeking to get in a better position. That there would kill me if I couldn't tweek to get in a better spot evenif it only meant moving 10 or 20 yards. Can you choose where you hunt or does he call all the shots ?? Would he let you sit all day on the last day in a spot " you " liked?? Tim |
RE: Serious Rut Question (lengthy read)
If you are confidant in the guide and you believe he knows his stuff and/or his results are proof positive that his method works,than do what he suggests.If you don't have confidence in him use another outfitter,or advise him of your concerns and talk to him about it.
It is easy to make a case either way.I have the same opinion you do though I would not want to leave the stand during the day.With a short hunt though you have to figure which stand or stands are hot pretty fast. |
RE: Serious Rut Question (lengthy read)
I would hunta couple days his way.If you dont see or shoot anything good in that time I would ask him if you can do it your way for a day or two.How can you contaminate area with 3 showers a day.The contamination comes from picking you up and driving you all over the woods.Electric vehicles are quiet but they still stink.They still use regular automotive type grease in bearings/bushings besides all the other odors.I would take it as it comes.You just might need those 12 hours for some R&R or picture time with a Monster you got the first day.;)
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RE: Serious Rut Question (lengthy read)
use the 4200 on a down payment for a nice piece of land and the put in a nice food plot, then i 3 or 4 years you will have your own bucks with all the time in the world.:D
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RE: Serious Rut Question (lengthy read)
ORIGINAL: TJF need more details... How big of area does he have access to ? How many otherhunters besides you the week you hunted ? Was he putting other hunters in stands in the afternoon thatyou hunted in the morning ? What time of the day did you see the good bucks from the stand sites? I can see him doing it this way for a few reasons. 1. Some spots are better for morning hunts then afternoon hunts and visa versa. I seldom will hunt the same area all day since I have a lot of acreageand better spots in the afternoon. Some spots are only good morning spots. 2. Getting you out of a stand for a small breakand fed helps tokeep youfrom getting antsy from being stiff,cold and tired. 3. Wind direction changes or thermals 4. Over hunting an area when other spots are better ( see #1 ) 5. Because it is what works for him and he wants you coming back in future years. Down side to his way... 1. Loss of hunting time. 2. Deer patterning hunters leaving and coming to standsthe same time every dayfor your shower/dinnerbreak ( Why I want more details on the last twoquestions ) 3. Contaiminating the areas by going in and out during the day ( every day )if the stands are good for bothAM andPM hunts for all day sits. Why I want to know if other hunters hunt your morning stand in the afternoon. While I agree with Jeff that it is his woods, he calls the shots... I am curious and find this very interesting. Half the fun of a hunt is the plotting that goes into it. Tim Last year I saw deer at all different times, morn/evening. There was one day where I wasgiven the chance to hunt all day, and saw anice buck right around noon time. I do trust his judgement, I'm just used to sitting all day. |
RE: Serious Rut Question (lengthy read)
i guess you should do what the outfitter says, but what if you got your way, hunted all day, and killed the next world record at high noon? then would you be considered "the man". then would they let people hunt all day? i would want to sit all day too.
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RE: Serious Rut Question (lengthy read)
I know this isn't answering your question,but one of the primary reasons that I don't go on guided hunts any more is because I felt like I couldn't hunt the way I wanted to.I have been on two guided hunts,both for whitetails,both with a rifle,this was many years ago.
So much depends on the outfitter though,if you have a quality outfitter with a great area,you are likely best to trust his judgement. I prefer to trust my own instincts though and for that reason I will likely never go on a guided hunt again. |
RE: Serious Rut Question (lengthy read)
That is a tough one. I must be related to that guy because that is exactly how I hunt. I've been known to bed down during mid-day. However, you are paying to hunt and should be able to hunt all day. Maybe you should ask him if you could stay instead of going back to camp. If he says no, I'd do what he wishes. He seems to have a handle on getting the job done.
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RE: Serious Rut Question (lengthy read)
ORIGINAL: MECHDOC I would hunta couple days his way.If you dont see or shoot anything good in that time I would ask him if you can do it your way for a day or two. |
RE: Serious Rut Question (lengthy read)
i cant offer any advise as ive never been on a guided hunt but i would prolly trust him if its to late to back out because it sounds like you dont have much of a choice. good luck tho whatever you chose and i hope you get your dream buck!
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RE: Serious Rut Question (lengthy read)
ORIGINAL: TJF couple more questions... How many stands sites does he run?? Does he move the stand sites aroundin a certainarea on where " you "are seeingbuck activity or are the stands setup and stay there the whole time you hunt?? No tweeking to get in a better position. That there would kill me if I couldn't tweek to get in a better spot evenif it only meant moving 10 or 20 yards. Can you choose where you hunt or does he call all the shots ?? Would he let you sit all day on the last day in a spot " you " liked?? Tim I will say this man is very military like when it comes to his deer hunting. He is very precise in what he does. In his behalf, I'll say I've never seen ANYBODY as serious about deer hunting, as this man. He let me sit all day one day last year, but I was moved a short distance from the original morning stand. I guess because of wind direction.   |
RE: Serious Rut Question (lengthy read)
I also thought I'd add, he allows NO clothing that willbe wornin the field, in the lodge. At all! That includes whatever boots you'll be wearing, bows, day packs, nothing. There is NO smoking/chewing either.[:@]Here's a couple more pics.
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RE: Serious Rut Question (lengthy read)
ORIGINAL: early in I also thought I'd add, he allows NO clothing that willbe wornin the field, in the lodge. At all! That includes whatever boots you'll be wearing, bows, day packs, nothing. There is NO smoking/chewing either.[:@]Here's a couple more pics. |
RE: Serious Rut Question (lengthy read)
If he lets you sit all day then do it at least one of the days. Deer will sometimes pattern the hunters and if noone hunts at noon that could be the magic hour. Something tells me that he has a good handle on the situation and since he doesn't allow walking in the woods patterning the hunters is harder for the deer.
I know from fishing if a guide says to use a certain fly or lure you'd be foolish not to. He knows his home waters better than you do. Maybe he can stagger his hunters, taking one in for lunch while leaving you in the recently vacated stand. If the deer indeed have the hunters patterned you may be in luck. He may also have this system in place cuz it is easier for him rather than having everyone do as they please. Good luck on your hunt! |
RE: Serious Rut Question (lengthy read)
Jeff- What does he do to cover everyone's breath? Time and time again I see people go nuts trying to hide scent but if your breath smells like crap and the deer are down wind then everything else is a wast unless you are huffing oxygen through a mask.
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RE: Serious Rut Question (lengthy read)
During prime rut? I think its half dozen, 6 the other situation....
being dropped off and picked up.....vs, driving to your stand parking walking in....I think helps, sounds like some benefits as opposed to those 2hrs midday....also hunting different spots etc....perhaps use walkie talkies and if the area is hot tell him you want to stay....otherwise follow his program.... This question makes me think back to my sport days, i recall my one coach and probably other coaches, saying, when at a camp etc....listen to that coach.....kinda makes me think, aside from some whacky idea....listen to his rules....he as you said is an accomplished hunter, has his own philosophies.....and has gotten the job done. If anything you may want to get picked up, and speed the process along if possible, rather than 2hrs out of the field if you can do it in an hour....or rather than 3hrs...in 1.5.....either way talk to him, tell him your concerns and see what he suggests/says? Sounds like he'll tell you his reasoning, and maybe contradict your concerns/make you feel better, all I can say is I'd want to talk over every aspect I could prior to getting there. Also maybe to shorten that lunch break, have a lunch packed....eat in the car....sure you can streamline it some ways, but I think he runs a solid ship, talk to references....see what they had though about taking 2hrs off during the rut to eat/shower? see if they liked it? if not what they would do differently. |
RE: Serious Rut Question (lengthy read)
Personally, I'd do as he reccomends. The proof is in the pudding and he owns a pudding factory!
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RE: Serious Rut Question (lengthy read)
ORIGINAL: Seif5034 Personally, I'd do as he reccomends. The proof is in the pudding and he owns a pudding factory! |
RE: Serious Rut Question (lengthy read)
ORIGINAL: racewayking ORIGINAL: Seif5034 Personally, I'd do as he reccomends. The proof is in the pudding and he owns a pudding factory! |
RE: Serious Rut Question (lengthy read)
ORIGINAL: early in ORIGINAL: racewayking ORIGINAL: Seif5034 Personally, I'd do as he reccomends. The proof is in the pudding and he owns a pudding factory! |
RE: Serious Rut Question (lengthy read)
I'd like to know what time of the day he arrowed his #2;) (probably straight up noon!)
As I read through this thread, (interesting to say the least) many questions and comments that TJF brought forth, I too had. Thanks Tim now I dont have to ask! Personally, During the RUT I prefer less intrusion and longer sits during.. On the other handI hunt almost exactly like that guy does from August 30 roughly into the first week of Nov. (our rut is later here, like Albertas.. mid Nov to the first week in Dec) But once that those big bucks start crusing and moving during the daylight I like being out there all day everyday that I can. I only have to enter the woods once and leave it. By this time of the year, (late Nov) many deer, especially the old bucks and doeshave hunters patterned and choose to move during the mid day because they've had hunters leave the woods at 10-11 and come back in the afternoon for two months straight.. I have seen/witnessed a tonof BIG Buck movement from 11-3 pm from Nov 20th to Dec5-6 here Finally, Ihave to agree withwhat Dan said, if you dont like his method, then I'd pick another Outfitter after this year, but if you go up there and kill a monster from daylight till 11 or during your afternoon hunt, I bet ya rebook before you leave! LOL have fun.. no matter what it sounds like the man is meticulous and has his area dial.. Like GMMAT said its his woods.. |
RE: Serious Rut Question (lengthy read)
Troy
I run my camp the same way this guy does!! You will see when you get here next December.[8D] :D early in Thanks for the details. This guy's way of running his campis very interesting and if I were to drop thousands of dollars on a guided hunt, I would pick a stricter run camp then a sloppier run camp. How many hunters were successful while you were there?? How many had shots but botched or decided to pass on a 130 or better last year while you were there?? Where majority of the hunters happy with him. How many were repeat customers ?? These are all things to look at from last year's hunt. If you are seeing bucks at any given time... he has accomplished not pressuring them. That in itself says a lot about him. Granted the rut does play a part but how pressured the deer is very important when you can control the hunters verses what most of us see when it is a mad house of hunters running all over doing more damage then good. Lack of pressure is a very good thing. He has to stick with a plan or he loses control. While you might like to hunt all day, some might want to hunt just a few hours for theAM andPM hunts. How do you keep everyone 100%happy without making a mess of things by letting them call all the shots and possiblyruining spots?? He has 6 more hunters coming the following week. He has to keep them happy too with unpressured deer so they have better odds atoppertunities too. It sounds like everyone is treated the same by such strict rules. That too me is worth something too. You know what to expect from him since he lays it all out. I would rather lose a few hours of hunting in his camp then gain a few hours in a sloppier run camp. Odds are more in your favor of seeing bucks and getting opertunities in his camp. If you could find another outfitter that runs a strict camp but allows all day sits... life would be great. Tim |
RE: Serious Rut Question (lengthy read)
ORIGINAL: TJF Troy I run my camp the same way this guy does!! You will see when you get here next December.[8D] :D early in Thanks for the details. This guy's way of running his campis very interesting and if I were to drop thousands of dollars on a guided hunt, I would pick a stricter run camp then a sloppier run camp. How many hunters were successful while you were there?? How many had shots but botched or decided to pass on a 130 or better last year while you were there?? Where majority of the hunters happy with him. How many were repeat customers ?? These are all things to look at from last year's hunt. If you are seeing bucks at any given time... he has accomplished not pressuring them. That in itself says a lot about him. Granted the rut does play a part but how pressured the deer is very important when you can control the hunters verses what most of us see when it is a mad house of hunters running all over doing more damage then good. Lack of pressure is a very good thing. He has to stick with a plan or he loses control. While you might like to hunt all day, some might want to hunt just a few hours for theAM andPM hunts. How do you keep everyone 100%happy without making a mess of things by letting them call all the shots and possiblyruining spots?? He has 6 more hunters coming the following week. He has to keep them happy too with unpressured deer so they have better odds atoppertunities too. It sounds like everyone is treated the same by such strict rules. That too me is worth something too. You know what to expect from him since he lays it all out. I would rather lose a few hours of hunting in his camp then gain a few hours in a sloppier run camp. Odds are more in your favor of seeing bucks and getting opertunities in his camp. If you could find another outfitter that runs a strict camp but allows all day sits... life would be great. Tim |
RE: Serious Rut Question (lengthy read)
Thanks guys, for all of the input. I appreciate it. I admire and respectthe way this man hunts. And, I also know he runs his camp the way he does for a lot of the reasons you mentioned TJF! And it makes perfect sense to me. I don't go up there to buck (no pun intended;))his system, or try to be a nonconformist.I have/will hunt HIS way.
Last year, 2 hunters in our groupkilled bucks. A 125" and a 140" buck. A few big boys were also seen.I saw 2 reallynice 140"-150" bucks as well. I let 2 120"-125" bucks walk right past my stand. Seeing bucks isn't a problem up here. Here's a scanned pic of his buck. It grossed 197" and netted 193". Before I forget, they only issue 60 non-resident tags for the Edmonton Bow Zone (1600sq miles) each year. My guide gets more than half of them. Food for thought. Oh yea, he killed this buck just before dark.:D:D:D  |
RE: Serious Rut Question (lengthy read)
ORIGINAL: early in He owns and has access to 2000 acres. Before I forget, they only issue 60 non-resident tags for the Edmonton Bow Zone (1600sq miles) each year. My guide gets more than half of them. Let me get this straight. The bow zone is 1600 sq miles and only 60 tags. Your outfitter has over half of them and is hunting 2000 acres....or roughly 3.5 sq miles. So, say he has, conservatively, 30 tags....then he's hunting 1 hunter per 66 acres. Now, to me, with his style and with the number of hunters per acre he's educating a lot of deer with as much running in and out as he does. If my my numbers are correct and with all the info you gave, I'd look for a different outfitter that can give a better hunt more to your style. JMHO. |
RE: Serious Rut Question (lengthy read)
ORIGINAL: _Dan ORIGINAL: early in He owns and has access to 2000 acres. Before I forget, they only issue 60 non-resident tags for the Edmonton Bow Zone (1600sq miles) each year. My guide gets more than half of them. Let me get this straight. The bow zone is 1600 sq miles and only 60 tags. Your outfitter has over half of them and is hunting 2000 acres....or roughly 3.5 sq miles. So, say he has, conservatively, 30 tags....then he's hunting 1 hunter per 66 acres. Now, to me, with his style and with the number of hunters per acre he's educating a lot of deer with as much running in and out as he does. If my my numbers are correct and with all the info you gave, I'd look for a different outfitter that can give a better hunt more to your style. JMHO. |
RE: Serious Rut Question (lengthy read)
ORIGINAL: _Dan ORIGINAL: early in He owns and has access to 2000 acres. Before I forget, they only issue 60 non-resident tags for the Edmonton Bow Zone (1600sq miles) each year. My guide gets more than half of them. Let me get this straight. The bow zone is 1600 sq miles and only 60 tags. Your outfitter has over half of them and is hunting 2000 acres....or roughly 3.5 sq miles. So, say he has, conservatively, 30 tags....then he's hunting 1 hunter per 66 acres. Now, to me, with his style and with the number of hunters per acre he's educating a lot of deer with as much running in and out as he does. If my my numbers are correct and with all the info you gave, I'd look for a different outfitter that can give a better hunt more to your style. JMHO. |
RE: Serious Rut Question (lengthy read)
Gotcha......in your earlier post it said he owned and had access to 2000 acres.......it didn't sound right.
Thanks for the clarification. |
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