Are the record books "tainted" now??
 

I've never been one to care about the deer record books............but I wonder for those of you that DO care and take them seriously with a sense of pride in being included..........what do you think about the current and soon to be greater flood of huge racked bucks that are filling these books now. Does this "cheapen" or "taint" any aspect of them or do you simply look at them in the same manner as you did years ago.

Things I would be talking about of course are the growing of racks through supplemental feeding.........the common practice of paying to hunt huge bucks.........."selective" harvesting and breeding and selling of genetic material........no more 65% let off rule...........and so on.

Will this era be looked back upon similar to the way baseball is looked at in the 90's now??.......with artificial means being introduced with obvious results.

Also.........would you be pissed to see a genetically and nutritionally "farmed" deer take over the top spot in these books??

RE: Are the record books "tainted" now??
 

By some, probably. I don't look at baseball that way......so it's hard for me to relate.

I agree (records don't lie)......125" ain't what it used to be (historically).

RE: Are the record books "tainted" now??
 

Some recordshave stood for a long time, from old photos I have deer werebigger back than.
There was not the pressure there is today. More big bucks, more people hunting them.

In the wild(free) there are still very few deer that reach 5.5. Once they get a decent set of head gear they are a target.
How many record book bucks where shot this year?

Milo still standing and so is the archery record, since the 60's.

Food is a key, but age is still the main factor IMO.

RE: Are the record books "tainted" now??
 

I never had much faith in the record books for Whitetail. I don't register any of mine, nor do any of my friends in this area. The Olds barns and sheds in this part of the country have piles of racks just lying around that I'm positive would change the books considerably, prob true throughout the Midwest. I don't know how the books could be even close to accurate when the majority of hunters never enter their Bucks. States like Illinoise show high numbers of entry's because most hunters register. Most farmers in my area that shoot a 180" 10 point, or even a 200+ buck generally just throw it in the shed or ditch, with very little show or bragging. As for pen raised deer, I hope not many ever get snuck into the records. I know it sounds crazy, but I think there are many World record racks just laying around.

RE: Are the record books "tainted" now??
 

HHmm, if I lived in the Midwest I might not be concerned with it either.

125" is still 125" in my area of PA. They come few and far between. I've hunted 26 seasons with a bow. My biggest is a 95" but of course, I must not know what I'm doing. [:-] :eek:

RE: Are the record books "tainted" now??
 

Hey ROb....

I hunted1 day by your house and saw a 125"[8D]:D

(OK.....That didn't work out too well for me, either....:eek:)

Carry on.[&:]

RE: Are the record books "tainted" now??
 

I'm sure many qualifying bucks do not make the books from everywhere. BUT I think Atlas was talking about "All Time Records" I guarentee you if someone shoots a buck like that, it won't end up in the loft of some barn. A record (all-time) Buck is a check waiting to be cashed!

The records are not tainted. Records are made so that others may break them. It doesn't diminish the success of the past. Be it a a camp record, a State record or an all time record, one can easily gage the previous achievement by the length of time it endured. As that window gets smaller (the length of time a record stands) on can see where Habitat, Genetics..etc contributed. This doesn't diminish a thing!

RE: Are the record books "tainted" now??
 

Of everything you listed this one is what concerns me most as a bow hunter and P@Y member. Bow manufacturers and bow hunters fought this let off rule very heavily and finally won there battle for P@Y to recognize anything higher then 65% let off in the books, anything higher then that now has a * by it. Is it fair to others, if P@Y stops right here and doesn't take it any farther, to me its fair then!

RE: Are the record books "tainted" now??
 

A lot of things can be said here. I mean, did the use of compound bows taint the records? Should trad and modern equipment even be in the same category for these records, do need 2 categories? I don't know, and don't have an opinion, other than the traditional guys having their efforts reduced because of compounds. I mean let's face it, traditional equipment is the Alfa and Omega of bowhunting. Period. I have never taken an animal with trad equipment, I learned how to shoot using a recurve but I knew from the get go, that i was not talented enough to shoot animals with it. Anyone who takes an animal with trad eq, should be in a seperate class. One that a rank above modern equipment. My only opinion on the matter, I know Im going to catch it for this one!![:o]

RE: Are the record books "tainted" now??
 

I pay attention to the records pretty closely. I don't think this "era" is tainted. Regardless of whether or not the deer has good nutrition and is allowed to live past 5.5 years of age, the hunter still has to hunt him. All the nutrition in the world isn't going to put that deer on the wall.

However, the growing number of rack factories, meaning the farms where they raise and genetically enhance deer for the sole purpose of selling them to ranches to increase the genetics of a herd, or, worse yet, for someone to pay huge dollars to come in and hunt is a real concern.

RE: Are the record books "tainted" now??
 

Thinking about this our era has an advantage in just about every thing these days.

What would have Jack N. done with the today's Golf Club and balls? Training? Jack was a fat guy[8D]
Sports guys all have "mental" doctors these days.
Athletes are trained better, we know more.

Look at the deer records Hanson buck over 10 years, Archery Record around 40 now. Will they fall? I think so. More hunters, how many are going to let that 180'' 4.5 walk[&:]

THe questions is has the era even started yet? Being records(big 2)have NOT been broke yet.

RE: Are the record books "tainted" now??
 

Lmfao Vabowman, I get a kick out of you!! Actually P@Y does have a Trad book out now. When ever you get a P@Y animal they ask you what you shot it with and if you tell them Trad and have a picture you will automatically be in both the Regular P@Y book and the Traditional P@Y book.

RE: Are the record books "tainted" now??
 

He's not the only one:D I could not hit chit in a septic tank with one:eek:

RE: Are the record books "tainted" now??
 

I'm not sure how this applies. Everyone in Jack's era was using similar equipment.

Are you asking how many course/tournament records he would hold (score-wise)? Golf has kept up to a degree with lengthening golf courses to keep up with innovations in technology. They're not playing the same courses they used to play....and anyone in the golf "know" is aware of this fact.

As far as I know.....P&Y hasn't increased their standards for record book entry to keep up with modern day "innovations" (QDM programs; nutrition technology; etc...). If anything.....they've dumbed-down the standards (let-off rules).

RE: Are the record books "tainted" now??
 

You goof ball Germ!!

RE: Are the record books "tainted" now??
 

WHAT are you talking about? Okay they added some length. So your telling me that todays pros are approaching the greens with the same clubs the Trevino's and Nicklaus's used? Are you telling me Square Grooves and better balls have not increased the play-ability of shots. (Drop and Stop).

Your saying new equipment is not more forgiving? Thus allowing more fairways to be hit with less than perfect contact?

Is hitting in the rough in a non major as much of a penalty as those days?

So the new equipments benefits have effectively been neutralized by adding some length?


WOW I knew you said you didn't play anymore, I just didn't realize you had lost touch with the sport to this magnatude.

RE: Are the record books "tainted" now??
 

Good post GERM.

RE: Are the record books "tainted" now??
 

Think of the leeps and bounds Q.D.M. would make if planted food plots on all that wasted space thats now called golf courses?

RE: Are the record books "tainted" now??
 

Jeff, I don't want to turn this into a golf discussion, but lengthening the courses a bit has not compensated for the advances in technology. There is only so much land to lengthen by and there is no way you could hit the same shot with an old steel shafted wood head driver as you can with a 500cc titanium with a Grafalloy shaft. I think it is a very fair comparison to trad vs. compound.

As far as the deer record books, my view is that there will be and has been an increase in the number of low to mid-level qualifying bucks that are shot and submitted (125"-170"), but when you start talking about 180"+ animals that is special regardless of what is going on. Once you get into 200"+ especially typical, that is absolutely world class. It will still be a special deer that breaks the records. So I don't see the records as being tainted (unless Barry Bonds or Roger Clemens get them;)).

RE: Are the record books "tainted" now??
 

As should be Schultzy.

RE: Are the record books "tainted" now??
 

In my best "Bones" from Star trek voice.

Dammit Jim, you always have to go there! ;)

RE: Are the record books "tainted" now??
 

To me, the record books are all about the animals and not the hunters. So no, I do not feel that they are tainted.

No matter what the top animals were killed with or whatever, if the mounts were coming to a show around me you can bet your last dollar I will be there to see them and I would be in awe of the animal. Couldn't care less about the hunter though.

RE: Are the record books "tainted" now??
 

I agree with this, I don't think that the records are tainted. By looking at how many are entered each year and compared with the number of hunters, a 125" buck is still difficult to get. Sure there are more due to QDM, food plots etc., but they're still not a dime a dozen. A mature buck is simply more difficult to hunt. If they weren't, everybody would have them.

RE: Are the record books "tainted" now??
 

They added a LOT of length. Check Augusta National Circa 1965 v. 2008;)

Yes. Look at the field as a whole. The Tigers and Jacks of their respective eras are anomolies.

See....."they've added length". Also....note the green makeups of todays courses v. Jack's era. When Mr. McKenzie designed Augusta.....do you think he ever dreamed they'd get them running 14 on the stimp?;)

See "they've added length". It NEEDS to be more forgiving. Why do you think they added length?

In Jack's era.....he didn't have to deal witht he roughs we have, today. Check into how many open type courses were irrigating their roughs in Jack's era.;) the course setups have kept up with technology.....and they keep adjusting, even today.

Yes.

A seven iron out of the rough with a square grooved, perimeter weighted iron ....to an undulated bentgrass green.....running 14 on the stimp......is one HELLUVA adjustment to the leaps made in technology. When you look at what the TOUR is doing.....v. what YOU are doing on your muni course that has NOT kept up with technology.....you see that this is true.

RE: Are the record books "tainted" now??
 

When Barry Bonds was accused of juicing they measured his head to see how muchlarger it is now. Steroids cause your head to grow.[:o]

Any expanding hat sizes in todays bow hunting world?

To some of you guys that should be a scary thought.;)

RE: Are the record books "tainted" now??
 

I wonder if they measured his johnson.:eek:

I'm betting your head is bigger than it used to be, Jim....but I'm not accusing you of being juiced!:D

RE: Are the record books "tainted" now??
 

Gee Jeff why would you say that?:eek:

RE: Are the record books "tainted" now??
 

Oh Jeff I disagree with so many of your points..But I doubt anyone wants to hear it.

And Jim, Steroids do not make your head larger. HGH (Growth Hormone) does.

As for"Johnson" size..a quick explanation for all to learn from.

Once and for all: Steroids have 0 effect on a mans unit size. They shrink your "lemons" Temporarily.
If you are getting an excess amount of Lemon juice injected. Your body doesn't have to produce lemonaid.
It realizes this and shuts down production. Once you come-off the supplementary injections. Your body will gradually begin lemonaid production again.

Or so I've read..[&:]

RE: Are the record books "tainted" now??
 

Golf and deer hunting:eek:.....well...you guys make me feel better that I do not golf.

RE: Are the record books "tainted" now??
 

This is certainly an area that has grown very recently, both in number of places growing deer, and the size of the deer being grown. I got a magazine (from ASA I think) that has an ad for a deer farm that has one buck pictured that is 303" at 2 years old. Deer of this magnitude are going to be scrutinized when/if killed, especially any that challenge any current world records. There is so much skepticism and jealousy in the hunting world right now that taking a true new world record will have to be done in pretty much perfect andprove-able (if that's even a word) circumstances. A good friend of mine is a DNR officer, and his best friend in poaching cases is the local taverns. People love to talk about their trophies, and when some time passes, the real story seems to always find its way to the surface.

As far as the records being tainted now, I'm sure there are more 125" bucks that are being killed, but deer over 180" are still special, and over 200" just doesn't happen very often.

RE: Are the record books "tainted" now??
 

What I am wondering it just the way it is, and we just have to deal with in.

Golf is better than it was
Deer hunting is better than it was.
More bigger bucks than we had in the past

RE: Are the record books "tainted" now??
 

RE: Are the record books "tainted" now??
 

I dont look at it as being tainted, i to, am about the admiration of the animal. Im sure some slip through the cracks that get beyond the let off rule, pen raised or whatever. again im all about the admiration of the animal, the man upstairs will take care of the rest if been done unhonestly ;)

RE: Are the record books "tainted" now??
 

If they were to remove the fair chase restriction ,how many would be entered?

RE: Are the record books "tainted" now??
 

Why would they do that!!??

If they did........... then I'd say that the records would become tainted!

RE: Are the record books "tainted" now??
 

People like David Morris anda whole bunch ofothers think they should right?

RE: Are the record books "tainted" now??
 

Question, a buddy of mine killed a 153" buck back in the 80's at our hunting camp. It made boon and crocket back then and is entered. That size buck will no longer make it, does that make it tainted? I dont think so! it was what it was and whats now is now.

RE: Are the record books "tainted" now??
 

Along the same line, how many deer are entered that were taken that should not of been according to their fair chase rules?

Do they just take the hunters word for the location of the kill?

Not trying to the clubs down in any way, I don't know so I am asking.

RE: Are the record books "tainted" now??
 

Yes, but they also have a task force that does a great Job from what I can tell. It's sad they need one, IMO

RE: Are the record books "tainted" now??
 

again, the books are not prob tainted, but way off as far as where the bigger deer are taken, because not everyone enters their deer. To say 200+ deer are rare is not true, I guess it just matters where you live.