RE: Elite GTO, should NOT be overlooked...
 

Plus....there's one bow company (ahemmm)....that must spend $300/bow on advertising!;)

RE: Elite GTO, should NOT be overlooked...
 

You guys crack me up.

TFOX - if hoyt sent you a flyer that said "Hoyt Bows will now be built by enchanted leprechauns using only parts that have been bathed in holy water and ordained by the Lord God himself," you'd be refinancing the mortgage and putting $22,000 down on whatever magic bow they built. You'retotally brainwashed by the major marketing,puffing andsales pitches. I hate to burst your bubble - but 6061-T6 aluminum sells for a couple dollars a pound - they have the CNC machines on site - so they cut it however they wantit cut - minimal costs. A set of strings costs the manufacturer maybe $25. A couple aftermarket parts (axles, bushings, grip plates) might run another $25. The raw materials for a set of limbs costs Barnsdale about $9 per set. There you have it: A complete bow, assembled for barely $100. I couldn't imagine Hoyt's costs being much more - although I'm sure they're probably 3-4-5x higher than everyone else, just because everything they do is better. LMAO And the leprechauns aren't cheap.

Hell, if you buy a matthews, you're getting a $100 bow, with $250 in marketing costs built-in. That's another thing that really rubs me...

Scott- you're seeing the wrong lawyers bro. Most of them provide a free consultation, but when they start drafting and filing things - that's where you run into the $$. You've gotta bargain shop, just like anything else. That reminds me - here in about a month or so, we'll get an Ohio shed hunt together. Call or PM me and we'll line upthe Dtails.

RE: Elite GTO, should NOT be overlooked...
 

Fran:

1. How much were those CNC machines?
2. How much did it cost to train the technician who runs it?
3. How much did it cost to FIND the technician to run it....and the guy who trained him?
4. How much does it cost to PAY the said employees to build said bow?
5. How about their fringes (healthcare; benefits; taxes; etc..., etc..., etc...
6. How much for the building they're in?
7. Taxes on the property?
8. Operating costs for the facility?

Heck I could go on.......but like Mr. Melon said in 'Back to School'.....you're living in fantasyland.

There's more to a bow than the raw material costs. MUCH, MUCH more (and this is true for ANY "product" on the public market)

RE: Elite GTO, should NOT be overlooked...
 

Amen Jeff, I was just getting ready to type up pretty much the same thing but I was just gonna forget about it cause I learned their is no way of winning when dealing with Fran :D

RE: Elite GTO, should NOT be overlooked...
 

Fran and I are friends. Nothing against Fran at all.....and I agree we pay a premium to shoot what we do.

I just want to show the WHOLE picture....to be fair.

RE: Elite GTO, should NOT be overlooked...
 

OK Jeff... I'll play:

1. How many jobs does one CNC machine eliminate?
2. How many outsourcing requirements does a whole fleet of CNC machines eliminate?
3. What used to be "new," "expensive" technology... isnow "old" and "cheap."
4. The costs of trained technicians from technical schools keeps costs low and makes replacement easy. Running CNC machines isn't rocket science. It's just not.
5. How much does it cost to PAY the said employees to build said bow? Not much, now that they've taken all the human work out of it by automating the process. Payroll has probably stayed the same, despite VOLUME increasing dramatically. The steel mill down the road used to employ 3000 people, but now their payroll is down to 500, and their output is higher than ever. Chew on that.
6. How about their fringes (healthcare; benefits; taxes; etc..., etc..., etc...) - LESS employees = A lot Less Fringe bene's. That's the American model. Automate, eliminate jobs, save $$$.
7. How much for the building they're in? Steel buildings really aren't incredibly expensive - and honestly - you could build a bow in a big garage. We're not talking about building Cadillacs or Boeing aircraft here... Just putting together a 4-pound hunk of aluminum.
8. Taxes on the property?I can't speak for other areas, but here, property taxes never change, unless youxfer title or get reassessed...and we reassess values about once every50 years.Most businesses (around here)are moving into tax-free economic growth zones, to beat down their costs. As more businesses jump ship and leave, the costs of doing business domestically continue to get lower and lower - as the incentives continue to add.
9. Operating costs for the facility? Probably not much different than 10 years ago.Sewage, electric, H20- really haven't fluctuated more than the base inflation rate.
10. How much can a manufacturer save by using (even only a few) cheap, imported parts built overseas? Axles, bolts, bushings, grips, etc...

The U.S. Inflation rate is about 3% per year. Sorry, but that doesn't translate into prices doubling every 10 years.

I guess we all agree to disagree... You guys think the prices are great, I don't. I don't even think they're close to being fair.

All I'm saying is - there's an $800 pricetag on some of these things . . . and I wholeheartedly believe that the consumer isn't getting $800 worth of equipment. I feel like there are someawfully shady tactics being employed to keep the prices set at that level - and it's grossly unfair to the consumer.

Again, I don't expect my viewpoint to be popular here, because almost everyone responding on this thread either has some kind of vested interest, or has a friend who does... But it still doesn't change the truth.

Deep down, I know you guys all can see that I'm not just pulling this out of thin air - there's some creed to this whole discussion. Some of you want to argue, just based on WHO is saying it, but not WHAT I'm saying. Or you're offended b/c I'm casting "your" company in a bad light... I'm just saying what I think needs to be said, and what I KNOW you'll never read in a magazine or see on the Outdoor Channel.

RE: Elite GTO, should NOT be overlooked...
 

Hey Fran,have you ever bought a single piece of billet aluminum or machined it.I have and I am a tool maker by trade,I know a thing or 2 about that you are making yourself look like a complete idiot explaining.I do this for a living,don't tell me what you think is going on because I KNOW.;)

Hell,I run a cnc machine just about every day,not like the ones they use,they use high speed machines.

A tech riser has much more machine time than any other bow on the market right now.The billet is TWICE as big as well,meaning twice the cost.


For the record,I hunt with an 04 model,I don't get into all the marketing crap that you seem to.I did own an 06 competetion bow but sold it when I got out of competition(best bow I ever owned).I will be in the market soon and Hoyt is definately on my list but I am not restricted to them,the shop sells other bows too.Both Mathews and Bowtech;).

I am a national shooting staff member through a local shop because of my knowledge and ability to represent the shop.


I will agree that bows are overpriced but what isn't.Blaming Hoyt ischildish at best.


You remind me of an old saying,if you can't dazzle em with brilliance,baffle em bs.Not really your fault though,that is just the lawyer coming out out in you.:D

RE: Elite GTO, should NOT be overlooked...
 

Well, Foxy, I happen to be really good friends with a guy who owns/operates a fairly good-sized machine shop, withsomenew millingmachines- and just like any other job - a CNC machinist is not irreplaceable. And running the machines...most definitely not rocket science.

I know that comes as a blow to you... seeing ashow you know everything, and all... LMAO (remember - you took the first shot at MY profession).

A few dollars-a-pound for 6061 aluminum billet. That's a fact. Built on a machine that a high-schooler could operate, once the data is input.

RE: Elite GTO, should NOT be overlooked...
 

This thread has gotten a wee bit off topic hasn't it :D. A good "debate" though.

RE: Elite GTO, should NOT be overlooked...
 

Its all about supply and demand....if you want the newer technology in Bows your going to have to pay for it or find a more reasonable priced Bow to hunt with.Some of us can't afford to pay the high prices of the newer bows but do just as well out hunting with what we can afford.It not always the Equipment that makes the Hunter but the Hunter behind the equipment! ;)

RE: Elite GTO, should NOT be overlooked...
 

Amen, and I might tweak that a bit by saying its always the hunter behind the equipment.

RE: Elite GTO, should NOT be overlooked...
 

And I have a cousin who is a lawyer/doctor,yes,she is liscenesed in both professions but that has nothing to do with me.;)


I am not an operator,I am a tool maker,big difference but you already knew that didn't you?:D

RE: Elite GTO, should NOT be overlooked...
 

Here is an example what it would cost you and me to buy enough aluminum to build a hoyt,I did a quick search and didn't find rectangular bar stock but did find square stock.My Hoyt would require a 3 1/2" X 6" X 24" raw material to make.


Since I didn't find a rectangular stock,I used an average of 4 1/2" square and the price is more than acouple dollars a pound.


Alittle over $200.00 for the bar if it were you or me buying this material.All the big bow makers are not paying nearly this much because of bulk BUT I would say they are paying more than half. This is just raw material,no machining or designing whatsoever.


Ask your friend what some of the software cost that they use to design with,you will be surprised.

Again.I agree the prices are getting out of hand but it isn't Hoyt's fault,it is the consumers right now.They are demanding bigger, better and fasterdesigns each year(thread about this right now) and are willing to pay.Supply and demand,the demand is there and people are willing to pay so it is a matter of the supply.



http://www.speedymetals.com/pc-2510-8378-4-12-sq-6061-t6511-aluminum-extruded.aspx

RE: Elite GTO, should NOT be overlooked...
 

Nice research TFOX.


I'm not trying to fuel any fires here, because I have no dog in this fight. I know THIS year Hoyt's MSRP took a real price hike. Last year's Vectrix XL and the new Katera XL, both "cost" our shop the exact same amount of money. However this year, Hoyt gave the new Katera XL, a MSRP of $899, while last year's VectrixXL was $799. Justification? While they aren't charging us anymore, why are they want us to charge the customer more?

RE: Elite GTO, should NOT be overlooked...
 

It is because of the new design,that is how it works.Hoyt isn't the only ones to do that.I will have to double check those numbers,they seem a little off to me.

How many really sell them for that?


It really wasn't that much research,I already new it,just needed numbers to show.I have priced aluminum before and in many cases,it is cheaper to buy a product already made than it is to make it myself if I have to buy all the raw materials.

RE: Elite GTO, should NOT be overlooked...
 

Ok, from your guys speculation. How much do you think these bow manufacturers are making (profit) on each bow they put out the door?

RE: Elite GTO, should NOT be overlooked...
 

Hey Fran....again just "discussing".....and I know a little about people disagreeing bassed on the author.;)

I'm a builder - by trade. What was the cost of that metal bldg/sq. ft. 10 yrs ago?

Wages to pay that empoyee (including labor burden) 10 yrs ago?

I remember gasoline at $0.35/gallon.;)

How much has the cost of doing business risen in the last 10 yrs?

I'm NOT arguing with you. I'm qrguing your point(s). Your argument has "some" merits. Mine does, too. I paid $8,500.00 for a really nicely equipped Nissan pickup truck in 1997. Price me one, today;)

RE: Elite GTO, should NOT be overlooked...
 

I really don't know an exact number,but I would bet it is no more than the profit margin on most any other products we buy.


I would bet it is about a 35%-45% profit margin for them.

RE: Elite GTO, should NOT be overlooked...
 

I found some plate on that site.Check out what a 3" X 6" X 24" would cost.

My average was very close and remember,I needed a 3 1/2" piece,not 3"


http://www.speedymetals.com/pc-2380-8351-3-x-6-6061-t6511-aluminum-extruded.aspx

RE: Elite GTO, should NOT be overlooked...
 

I find this quote funny only because it comes from a guy who shoots a bow from a company with a Nascar sponsored vehicle and invovlement in PBR sponsoring.How much do you think that costs Bowtech? The big boys all got big by making lots of money. We live in a a capitalist country so I'm not going to begrudge them that.

Back on topic, one thing I will say is that when Elite started out it was nice that you got such a quality bow for around $650. Now the price has crept up and I just don't see them being to the point yet where they can price themselves with the big boys. IMO they should focus on continuing to make great quality bows that compete with the top bows in performance and price them lower. That will help to establish them more as a company and boost sales. If I were forced to buy a bow tomorrow and had to choose between the Bowtech 82nd Airborne and the GTO (picked these two because of similar performance specs) I would go with the Bowtech because I know the company and know what to expect.

RE: Elite GTO, should NOT be overlooked...
 

Dont much care what you find funny, Bry.....you know it's the truth. :D

You can't sling a dead cat without hitting a Mathews marketer.......and the money they must spend oufitting and paying the "Pro" hunters must be astronomical. How many big name guys are endorsing Mathews? Shoud we start a thread naming them? Not sure there's enough bandwidth;)

RE: Elite GTO, should NOT be overlooked...
 

Would you make that decision after shooting the two, or just make it solely on Bowtech, being the more stable company.

RE: Elite GTO, should NOT be overlooked...
 

No argument on that Jeff, Mathews is without a doubt marketingwhores. Bowtech spends their money too. In the end the consumer pays for all of it. I just don't hold it against any of the companies, that's all.

That would be based on Bowtech being the more stable company. I think Elite makes some of the best bows on the market, and Kevin has made some significant efforts to undo the initial mistakes he made early on, but there is still uncertainty with Elite. Call me old fashioned, but I like that warm fuzzy. I'd rather drive a Toyota over a Scion too.;)

RE: Elite GTO, should NOT be overlooked...
 

LOL
Fran there are plenty of inocent people in Jail who bargain shopped;)

Plenty of gulity people who are free that could hire their way out of jail;)

I like this bow:D

RE: Elite GTO, should NOT be overlooked...
 

Germ - if you didn't like the draw on the Mace - you might not like the GTO. I haven't tried it, but I read somewhere that the force/draw was similar. One of those things to try before you buy. Speaking of trying things, I just got back from a full 60 minutes of hockey, and I think some guy tried to gut me with a hockey stick. I'm old and getting beat up... Knees hurt, head hurts, ribs hurt, lip swollen, and my groin is on fire (not in a good way). Bad scene here, buddy... I'm gonna have an ice cold glass of Geritol and head to bed.

TFox - I found6061 pre-fab aluminum billetfor $18/foot...and that's CNC ready from AMERICAN suppliers - per piece - low/no volume...$2/lb for6061 ingot bulkF.O.B. China. If I spoke Chinese, or felt like emailing somebody to prove you even more wrong, I could find it even cheaper. I won't get intotrying to explaineconomies of scale with you - that would be like sucking my own brain out of my head with a coffee stirrer. So I concede:Jesusshoots aHoyt.Mohammad shot a hoyt. So did Gandhi and Chuck Norris and Rambo. Those poor souls at Hoyt/Eastonare lucky to ever make a dollar. If they don't raise the prices some more soon, they'll be on the street corner drinking Night Trainby the end of the week - we should maybe start a donation drive.LOL

Back on topic: Y'all seem to put a lot of creed in companies that are "established." Why? Do you guys need service that often? I just ask, b/c in 15 years, I've never once had to use my warranty for anything... Is that not the norm?

RE: Elite GTO, should NOT be overlooked...
 

It's not about Hoyt being better,I never made that statement,it was about you blaming them for causing the prices to sky rocket.Which is bs and you know it.Atleast I hope you do.

$18 a foot,what size is that.Believe it or not,size does matter.:D

My experience with chinese materials is that it is junk and I really doubt any bow manufactuer would use it,atleast I hope they don't.

RE: Elite GTO, should NOT be overlooked...
 

Actually,Rambo did shoot a Hoyt.:D

Sorry,i couldn't resist that one.

RE: Elite GTO, should NOT be overlooked...
 

Fran. When you shoot the GTO you will realize that the GTO's draw cycle isn't like your Mace. I honestly can't describe this bow and give it all the credit it deserves. Shoot one ASAP, that's all I can say.

RE: Elite GTO, should NOT be overlooked...
 

Fran maybe you missed this part of my response.

RE: Elite GTO, should NOT be overlooked...
 

Matt - I'd love to shoot one, but the fact is, it still wouldn't go as fast as mine. LOL None of the dealers around here would ever push the bounds of normalcy and order anything that would rock the boat. In beautiful southwestern PA, everyone is just a mindless sheep that buys whatever bowtech, hoyt or mathews putsout. Sight unseen. They don't care. They don't know what it's called, they don't know anything about it - they just know that they want one. And they'll refinance the house-trailer to get it.

I'm convinced that if Mathews or Hoytmade a bow called the "Flying Turd" that was actually molded out of shoe-shined human poop (MSRP $2199.99)- these idiots would be lined up to buy it with credit cards in-hand.

Better chance of being struck by lightning than actually ever seeing an Elite bow in any of our localshops.

RE: Elite GTO, should NOT be overlooked...
 

Talk one of your buddies into getting one like you were talking about and have them buy one directly from the factory. Come to Jeff's get together in April, and I might be able to bring one for people to try out.

RE: Elite GTO, should NOT be overlooked...
 

I just bought a new GTO on clearance, $200 off, at my dealer. What a bow.

RE: Elite GTO, should NOT be overlooked...
 

Wow Don, talk about resurrecting a thread. Jumped from Jan 08 to March 09. [&:] :D

RE: Elite GTO, should NOT be overlooked...
 

Boards that slow or that much time on one's hand?

RE: Elite GTO, should NOT be overlooked...
 

Boy, this is an oldie ;)

The GTO is a great bow. Until they got discontinued. Still a good bow though. Sounds like you got a deal too.

You'll like it.

RE: Elite GTO, should NOT be overlooked...
 

lol..yea..googled GTO for info on the bow, and bingo..up jumps Matts thread:D

RE: Elite GTO, should NOT be overlooked...
 

Yea, Kevin told me they were only made for 7-8 months. He told me good luck finding the Aigil solocam too..said very few were made, and guys don't let go of them. Like trying to find an 06 E-500 like I own..real hard to come by and sell quickly on AT. Elite has such a demand and a short supply of their bows, that it reminds me of the old Harley Davidson days when you actually had to put your name on a waiting list to get one.

RE: Elite GTO, should NOT be overlooked...
 

That was a good read:D

RE: Elite GTO, should NOT be overlooked...
 

Congrats again Don- yeesh. You are the steal of a deal KING!

The GTO was the ONLY bow that caused my local tech/dealer to stop shooting Hoyt for the past 10 years. He's a short draw guy and with cam fiddling was able to get his bow shooting 317 IBO at his 27" draw length. Thats SCREAMING for a 7" brace height and 2FPS faster than I was able to get my GT-500 to shoot at 29/5 grains (albeit a 60 pounder so I'd prolly pick uo 5 or 6 more FPS at 70/5grains).

They had a 29" GTO come in that for whatever reason would shoot in the low 350s all day long- but most of them shot in the mid 340s range. After handling one I'll admit there is something EXTREMELY special about that bow compared to the rest of Kevin's bows- It's quieter, it's faster, it's smoother to draw and smoother to shoot, and by all accounts is easy peasy to shoot. The GT-500 comparitively is a step back. Not far, but it is.

The tech is back to shooting a Bone Collector AM32 this year as he's a friend of Waddell, but I get the feeling he's not quite as enamored with it after a few weeks shooting it as he is of the GTO. I know for the me the ZTRs on the Alpha take some getting used to compared to a Binary cam bow-probably for him too.

Finding the GTOs and XXL bows is fairly easy, but modules are very scarce.

RE: Elite GTO, should NOT be overlooked...
 

Thank you sir:)