RE: Elite GTO, should NOT be overlooked...
 

Well... Considering that Hoyt's factory strings are beyond worthless... I'd say "Strings" first and foremost. Fuse might want to start building tampon strings, b/c they sure as heck can't make a bow string.

Secondly, I'd have to disagree on the Barnsdale limbs. Everything I've read... Everyone I've talked to... They all seem to unanimously agree that Barnsdale sets the gold standard in limb construction.

I'll concede that Hoyt has done its best to mimic the barnsdale method - both using a similar lamination procedure and components- and I think Hoyt is lightyears ahead of Bowtech, PSE and Mathews in this regard... But you'll have an awfully hard time convincing me that Hoyt's factory limbs are better than a set of Barnsdales.

Put it this way: Dave Barnsdale warranties my limbsat 3 gpp. Hoyt won't match that with theirs.

Actions > Words.

RE: Elite GTO, should NOT be overlooked...
 

quicksilver, I'm going to agree with most of what you said, with the exception of the '08 Fuse strings. I will admit that I don't know what they've done differently, but whatever it was, it worked. There is no stretch, no peep rotation....They're great.

I still don't know that Barnesdales are any BETTER than Hoyt, but then again, I don't really know that they aren't either. I'm still not sure why ANY bow company would even want to warranty dry firing a bow.....That 3 gpp is basically just that, dry firing the bow. Yes, apparently they can take it......but this is still a new trend, I'll be curious to see what happens w/ this over the course of the next couple years. And I'm also not sure that a 3 gpp warranty indicates a better limb either....

RE: Elite GTO, should NOT be overlooked...
 

I've heard HCA does as well, but here is a question. Is shooting an arrow at 3 grains per pound practical? Maybe in 3D and even then some of the major associations have speed limits or minimal grain weights. For hunting 3 gpp or even near that is a waste.

RE: Elite GTO, should NOT be overlooked...
 

Only because G5 started making strings, too. Loyalty and whatnot.

RE: Elite GTO, should NOT be overlooked...
 

But its fast! :eek:

;)

RE: Elite GTO, should NOT be overlooked...
 

Yes, and noisy and hard on a bow IMO. I'll take momentum over extreme speed for hunting purposes, but thats another thread.:D

RE: Elite GTO, should NOT be overlooked...
 

Agreed. :D

I've found a happy medium between the two and I'm more than satisfied. A relatively heavy arrow shooting 275+fps is more than adequate.

RE: Elite GTO, should NOT be overlooked...
 

Don - I'm glad they've come up with a better string, b/c they were flat-out ripping people off with that garbage they were putting on their bows in '07.

I got to watch 4 of my buddies buy new Vulcans last year, and thenhave to turn around 2 months later and buy new aftermarket strings, b/c they got sick of twisting theirs back into spec. That just shouldn't happen after you drop the better part of a grand on a bow. I thought it was criminal. One of the bows had to go back with a bad limb, and that was a major escapade, too.

The whole experience left a bad taste in my mouth - and I wasn't even the poor schmuck who got ripped off.

They definitely owe it to their customers to come up with a better offering than what they did last year. That was embarrassing.


Cougar Mag: My bow is a HCA - warranted at 3gpp. I won't get into it, but I hunted this year with an arrow built to 4.1 gpp at over 350 fps. No problems. Bow still in one piece. My limbs are warranted both through Barnsdale directly, and through HCA factory.

RE: Elite GTO, should NOT be overlooked...
 

Fran, brother.......if you only knew how much I agree with that statement. I did the same thing, bought a new Vectrix and 2 months later put WC strings and cables on it....

I absolutely couldn't stand the Fuse strings last year. I was scared this year when I bought my Vectrix Plus I would have to do the same thing, but I'm been very happy with them this year. I've had that bow since the end of November, and my peep hasn't rotated AT ALL.

RE: Elite GTO, should NOT be overlooked...
 

2 questions. (1)What is the GTO selling for in most pro shops? I have two Elite dealers listed within 45 miles of me. If I get interested I would just like to know how they compare.

(2) Using the proper draw length module can I adjust the draw to my length while at the same time lower the letoff to around 70%? I assume I could because that is what I did with my Patriot without losing any performance. I just despise the feel of 80% letoff. In fact I will not own a bow that HAS to be shot at 80% letoff.

RE: Elite GTO, should NOT be overlooked...
 

1. We are still waiting on a price sheet, but I believe our rep told us around $749.

2. Ummmmmm............I'm digging from memory here.........Yes, I THINK you can, but don't quote me on that one, I'm just not sure. I can find out though, if you don't get that answered.

RE: Elite GTO, should NOT be overlooked...
 

I'm not sure if you can put a different module on it for >80%, but you can manipulate that feeling with the draw stop.

RE: Elite GTO, should NOT be overlooked...
 

Hoyt limbs have been tested a 1000 times over the barnsdale so saying the bd's are the standard is an overstatement at best,plus the weakest part of a limb is the v and that has been eliminated with the hoyts but still there on the Barnsdales.,I am not badmouthing the Barnsdales but they are no better than Hoyt's,really not possible imo.

The string issue I agree with but what do we know about the elite strings,have they really been around and have enough out there to know.3 manufactuers already.;)

I for one never have had problems with hoyt strings but I know a thing or 2 about keeping them from twisting.AS far as the fuse strings,it has never been a material issue,the process was the problem and I hope WAS is a correct word.


Hoyt wouldn't have a problem with the limbs a 3 gpp.The issue would be with strings,cables and axles at that 3 gpi.They test their limbs by dry firing them,they hold up.;)

RE: Elite GTO, should NOT be overlooked...
 

I didn't mean to take away from the thread and elite but hoyt was brought into it and just wondered why.

Good points were made but some i just don't agree with.We can move on now.[8D]

RE: Elite GTO, should NOT be overlooked...
 

Eh, I'm going to overlook it the same way that I do the Pontiac. If only it had a better name on it.

RE: Elite GTO, should NOT be overlooked...
 

LOL, glance at it, but don't overlook it. ;) [8D]

RE: Elite GTO, should NOT be overlooked...
 

I was going to say the same thing as well, I just didn't want to waste the time to type this to Fran since he's already got it figured out and all. :eek: Both make a fine limb but to say one is better than the other is pure fanboy ignorance and regurgitation of what's been read and heard elsewhere.

And from what I heard, the change from WC didn't have to do pricing, it had a bit more to do with major manufacturing flaws at Elite that were cutting end loops on the string/cables causing bows to come apart on people at full draw, and Elite passing the buck onto WC when the issue was really with the cams. Funny thing is thatElite at least acknowledged the problem enough to fix the problem after production started by using a dremel tool at the factory to modify cams, and then finishing out their production run with these dremel tool modified cams. For a period of time after WC stopped providing strings for Elite, Elite was still claiming they were using WC strings, and as a matter of fact the CEO of Winners Choice had to make a public statment to clear this up for people so that people understood he was no longer supplying strings to them.He didn't want to be associated with them for some reason anymore. The bows continued to fail after Winners Choice stopped supplying them.

Any company that doesn't have the overhead to put in the kind of R&D and QA into place to make sure this kind of thing doesn't happen is never going to be "cream of the crop". Just MHO, butIt's worth another hundred $ more to get basically the same bow with a much higher level of QA behind it for me, and I have a problem with recommending them to anyone else for this reason, not to mention their business ethics.

They weren't at the ATA because they really can't take on more dealers and must be at production capacity............I wonder what that means in terms of turnaround time should an existing customer have a problem with something? [&:] If they can't keep up with paying new orders on bows, where on the priority list is problems with something already paid for going to fall?

I have a personal friend that bought 2x identical E500's, both of them ended up with the string/cable end loops being cut by the cam, one of which let go on him at full draw. Rather than sucking it up and re-engineering the cam to eliminate the issue,Elite useda dremel tool to modify it, then send it back for us to install claiming they fixed the problem. I've seen the bows first hand, worked on them for him, and saw the cam as well. Pretty sad indeed.

Take everything I've said for what it's worth. Again, I don't have a horse in this race as I'm not associated with any bow company at all at the time, just things that a lot here don't seem to be aware of.

Just a bit more food for thought..............

RE: Elite GTO, should NOT be overlooked...
 

Rick James, I can hear the frustration in your post, and it's exactly the frustration we've had with them for a couple years. Which is why I've said in previous posts that I hope they can get their stuff together, because they really do make a fine bow. Believe you me, I've got more stories than those you've relayed, I'm just not going to discuss them.

We're an Elite dealer, but we aren't ordering any right now unless a customer just really wants one. We have sold a couple already, and I've shot them both. They are shooters to be sure.

As far as dremeling the cams......I SORT OF understand that, from a business standpoint. Please don't read that I agree with it, or excuse it, because I don't. But with all the troubles they were having w/ lawsuits and such, I believe re-designing and re-machining a whole bunch of cams would have been the hole that sunk the ship....They just couldn't....Again, I don't excuse it or agree with it....And unfortunately the reverberations of that action have seriously damaged the ship as well.

But they are indeed working hard, I do have to say their customer service is better (hey, at least they answer the phone now), and they do indeed make a very fine bow. Seems to me they still have a boat load of internal stuff to work through, and hopefully they can.

Oh, and...I've got no horse in this race either. Like you and others, I just have some first hand experience with them is all.

RE: Elite GTO, should NOT be overlooked...
 

Matt,


That right there was the ONLY reason I was skeptical. I thought that was sorry, the way they fixed them. That was their 1st year in production wasn't it? I remember mobow talking about that. They fixed it for good the next year. I can understand why the dremeled it out. being a young company that could have broken them, it might not have been the right thing to do, but it'd what they HAD to do to stay in buisness.

RE: Elite GTO, should NOT be overlooked...
 

Man, you guys crack me up. Just listening to some of you gloat about how great "your" company is, if I didn't know better, I'd think you guys were CEO and majority shareholder. LOL

**Begin Rant**

Personally, I think they're all ripoff artists. They do nothing but rape the consumer at every turn in the road... They monopolize the market through protected dealerships, overpriced parts, overpriced products and ruthlessly false advertising.

Look at Hoyt/Easton... These are the slimebags who insisted on building 5000 different sizes and shapes of arrows, then cornering the market on the components that fit their odd shaft diameters - and rape you at the point-of-sale just for a stupid uni-bushing. They put practically everyone else out of business, so the sky is the limit on their pricing policies. Just dirty trick after dirty trick... Another favorite of mine were the draw-length specific cams. Wanna sell your bow? Better find a buyer with the same draw length, or he's gonna take onefor the teamwhen he has to order new cams. Oh yeah, it has a lifetime warranty - but we won't tell you that it expires when you sell the bow.

Bows didn't cost $800 (bare) 10-15 years ago. Granted, costs have gone up, but not by that much... They're still using the same components (6061-T6 Aluminum cut on a CNC machine) and Gordon Glass raw materials...Raw material and labor costs don't just triple in 12 years.

What really twists the knife, for me at least - is not WHAT they do, but WHO they're doing it to. Look, if some luxury boat manufacturer wants to assrapeRichie Rich on theprice ofhis 72 foot yacht, have at it. But these people are taking advantage of the lower middle class. Most of their customers (honestly) have a better use for $1000 than blowing it on a bow, seriously. I concede that the buyer is mostly to blame, and people have to understand their finances and priorities before they go out and drop a grand on a stupid bow.. But itreally bothers me when you see some guy posing outside his house-trailer with a $1200 new Vulcan with all the trimmings - and it looks like a refugee camp in the background.

Maybe I just have more sympathy for the working class...

The collusion and price-fixingbetween these mfr's makes me sick...and the fact that they market this junk so hard that they convincegood hard-working peoplethat they 'need' it.

Put it this way - I know what bowtech charges its LOWVOLUMEdealers for their bows, and there's a lot of money being sucked out of the consumer - who's paying for WAY more than he's getting.Since every other mfr is building basically the same thing - theiroverhead and dealer pricing can't be much different.

So, y'all wonder why I boycott Hoyt/Easton, Bowtech, Mathews, PSE.... This is why. I think they're reprehensible in every possible way. They just keep taking every opportunity to pull the wool over peoples' eyes, and that really scorches me.

That's why I support any newcomers to the marketplace, hoping that someday, somebody will crush the old boys club and bring prices back down to respectable levels - and stop the price gouging.

**end rant**

RE: Elite GTO, should NOT be overlooked...
 

[quote]Look at Hoyt/Easton... These are the slimebags who insisted on building 5000 different sizes and shapes of arrows, then cornering the market on the components that fit their odd shaft diameters - and rape you at the point-of-sale just for a stupid uni-bushing.[quote]

Different sizes give more choices to shoot. Better than one or two offerings to try and cover a wide range of poundage and draw lengths. The mfgs. who use a range of only 45-60 and 60-75 lb. in their arrow choices.....thats pretty poor in my book. Check out the prices too. The CX Maxima and some of Gold Tips arrows are just as high as the Easton ACCs.

While I agree that today's bows are too high in price, the price of aluminum today is sky high. Compare the bows of today against 12 yr. old bows and anyone can see the difference in workmanship. Most archers won't accept a blemish on their finish(rhyme:D) today. In years past a blemish was commonplace. String materials are higher because we all wanted no stretch strings/cables. We are also paying for that lifetime warranty because we asked for a longer warranty. About that warranty....why should a company expect to give free parts for life to a different owner(s) several years down the road.


One thing I agree with is I hate draw specific bows. Good for all the companies that do make modules and lose no performance.

RE: Elite GTO, should NOT be overlooked...
 

Coug - 6061 Aluminum is sold by the metric ton - and iscurrently priced at only a couple dollars/lb. - so that has nothing to do with the price explosion - the only reason that all of these companies are now charging such ridiculously high prices, is because Hoyt/Easton has set the bar that high.

For example: If Igot into the business of buildingbaseballs, and Rawlings is selling zillions of baseballs at $4 each... It doesn't matter if it costsme .25 cents of $1.50 to build your baseball... You can bet your ass thatI'm gonna charge the consumer between $3 and $5 for your ball. Rawlings already has established a high price, so it's easy for me to just break into the market and set a similar pricing scheme.

Hoyt/Easton has always manipulated market supply/demand to artificially control its market pricing. That has nothing to do with their overhead costs. Everybody else is just eating some of the pie that Hoyt/Easton has already created.

...and as for the argument about the "need" for different sizes - is there actually a "need?" Do you mean to tell me that Easton's constantly-changing shaft interior/exterior diameters just happens by accident? No way. They're deliberately keeping the market cornered in their favor - and keeping competitors from taking a bite of their apple (pun intended) by cutting their throats and competing on component prices. Is the HIT insert "necessary?" LOL I don't think so.

As soon as Joe Schmoe (the insert manufacturer) brings a marketworthy competitorcomponentto Easton's latest arrows -they scap that shaft, and come up with something different - then market the hell out of it and convince every poor schlep in the Union that their "old" arrows are no good, and that they "need" this great new thing...

The fact is, they can't "compete" with everyone else, because they want to price gouge. So, they do what they can to keep the balance tilted in their favor.


And while the "bows are built better - so they must cost more to build" argument may hold a little weight- that has to be offset by the notion that CNC machines (now) can easily do things (like make cleaner, more intricate cuts) than their predecessors could have ever dreamed of. What used to be a labor-intensive paint shop is now a camo dip that takes almost no effort, and is not nearly as labor-intensive. Imported parts and machines are cheaper now, and more readily accessible than ever.

RE: Elite GTO, should NOT be overlooked...
 

Wow, you really do have a beef with Hoyt. To be honest I have never owned one. But I do pretty well shoot only Easton arrows because I like them. I do have a beef with Easton now though......they are doing away with the A/C Superslim:( which I really like.

RE: Elite GTO, should NOT be overlooked...
 

I'm going to have to stay out of this one...maybe TFOX will have a reply.:D I will only add that QS, although I don't agree with any of what you said, it's kinda fun to sit back and watch you push people's buttons.:D

RE: Elite GTO, should NOT be overlooked...
 

MO - What can you possibly disagree with? It's a fact. We all know it. It's like the elephant in the room that nobody ever talks about. With all the competing interests and dollars changing hands - this is a topic that you'll NEVER read about in any bowhunting magazine, or see on TV, but I'm not in anyone's pockets, so I'm free to call it as I see it. No sugar coating. No lies. No half-truths.

Hoyt, Bowtech, Mathews and PSE - they all price gouge at the point of sale. They protect their dealers by guaranteeing a certain sales volume through "protected dealerships." And they collude on prices (at least implicitly). I know the prices, so I know what's happening.

Their past doesn't lie. Easton has been screwing people around with their arrows for 20 years, by yanking lines from the market and replacing them with new lines - forcing people to scrap their old inventory, and buy new components at ridiculous prices.

Let's face it: An aluminum arrow isn't all that far removed from being asodapop can. And a carbonshafts are one evolutionary step away from being bargain-basement carbon tubing. A bow is afew pieces of 6061 CNC-machined aluminum, with2 laminated limbs.

All of them are walking a very fine line between just conducting some peculiar business tactics - and violating the Sherman Anti-Trust act. One would have a hard time actually proving the collusion and market manipulation- but it's there - beyond a shadow of a doubt.

RE: Elite GTO, should NOT be overlooked...
 

You make some good points Fran, but its just not archery equipment. Take a look at the price of gas, bread, milk, cheese, cars, dog food, ect.. compared to what it was 15 years ago. The minimum wage was bumped up and now the companies "have to" charge more to make up for the extra money that they pay their employees! Its ridiculous, but you can't really single certain companies or markets for it!

RE: Elite GTO, should NOT be overlooked...
 

Buck Magnet- I agree that consumer prices have taken a significantupturn in the Bush years, but these companies are behaving especially badly.I canbuy PurinaDog Chow anywhere - not just at specialized vendors with protected geographic sales areas.Alpo isn'tsetting minimum price floors for their dog food -they just make the food, sell it atat ameager profit per can, and letthe market set the consumer price. Chevy doesn't keep changing the size and shapeof their bolts, so thateveryone who wants to use one hasto keep going out and buying new Chevrolet tools just to work on it.My Craftsman screwdriver comes with a lifetime warranty that is really a lifetime warranty. If Ford advertises a car that has 250 horsepower, it has 250 horsepower - it doesn't matter whether the driver is 5'0" tall, or 7'3". Ford doesn'tpass out a bunch of freepickup trucks to a horde of drivers, just tosucker them into coming online and swearing up and down all day that Ford is the greatest truck of all time.

Of all the things they do, the things that bother me the most are:
[ul][*]the secrecy shrouding their actual factory costs - if the public knew the truth, things would assuredlybe different - especially the obscene prices;[*]the protected dealerships;[*]the price collusion/fixing with their "competitors;"[*]monopolizing parts and components - charging unfair prices to the consumer, who has no available alternative;[*]advertising "ibo speed" and now "kinetic energy" - laypeople just don't understand those terms; and[*]"lifetime warranty" that is hardly a "lifetime warranty."[/ul]
So that's why I always support the small guy if I can. Just my way of doing my part.

RE: Elite GTO, should NOT be overlooked...
 

LOL, has nothing to do with supply and demand, it's George Bush

BTW house supplies are at a 15 year low, bush's fault also[8D]

RE: Elite GTO, should NOT be overlooked...
 

MAJOR credibilty discount points with this statement.:eek:

Well.....I'm no GWB fan....but I can assure you most all commodities have gone upunder every modern-day US President's watch.

While I agree with a lot of what you say......that was a major credibility hit.

RE: Elite GTO, should NOT be overlooked...
 

I know. But that doesn't make my statement wrong, now does it? All I said was that things got more expensive over the past 8 yrs - I'd tend to think that it would be more of a credibility hit to anyone who disagreed, dontcha think?

I just preach the gospel, brother - I can't change it.

RE: Elite GTO, should NOT be overlooked...
 

Counsler you will have to do better than that:D

RE: Elite GTO, should NOT be overlooked...
 

Not one bit. But you're implying "causation" when it's really "correllation".;)

OK...I relent. It was a factual error in judgement (I'll compromise).;)

RE: Elite GTO, should NOT be overlooked...
 

Yeah, and the newest scam is shooting 3 gpp arrow weight.....;)

True, and what did a loaf of bread cost 10-15 years ago? I BET it wasn't $2....

Yeah, and maybe they live the way they do because they CHOOSE to...not because they HAVE to. I knowseveral folks who make a darn good living and to look at their trailer/shed they live in....You would swear they are the definition of poverty.

RE: Elite GTO, should NOT be overlooked...
 

Quick,little test for you.Go buy the raw materials for a hoyt and then the same for a Mathews.(just an example)

You will find the raw materials twice as high aand then when you start maching them,you will find production cost also take twice as long.


But the other cost the same as them,Blaming Hoyt is petty at best.


AND,Hoyt limbs are not gordan glass.Atleast not the laminated ones.Neither are Barnsdale.

Bush to blame:eek:That is the most IGNORANT statement I have ever read on this site.;)Check Clintons record with the Chinese,then look at what the Chinese are doing with steel cost and then come back and make that statement again,atleast now you can blame ignorance,if you still make it later,well,it won't be ignorance anymore,it will be something else.


As far as the Elite go,I love what they are trying to do and hope they get to where they need to be.They are doing some good things but I don't know if they are there yet.They might be,I can't say because I just don't have enough experience with them.I do hope they get there though.


And I LOVE Easton arrows and their components.They got patents because they have good designs.Isn't America great.

RE: Elite GTO, should NOT be overlooked...
 

;)

We do have lawyers to keep us safe. They never fleece anyone


Man I stubbed my toe, I better call SAM. Sorry justin I am going to sue HNI. My attention was diverted by your cool site. I plan on using the money to help small children and buy moreland to hored more deer:D

Then pinky and I plan to take over the world!!!!!

Has anyone shot this bow?

RE: Elite GTO, should NOT be overlooked...
 

Oh, someone asked what the GTO was retailing for.......I looked today, we sell them for $759.

RE: Elite GTO, should NOT be overlooked...
 

Fran don't take this wrong... I just find it kind of ironic that someone who went to law school is talking about companies hosing people.... Have you ever had to attain a lawyers service???? Talk about a hosing....

RE: Elite GTO, should NOT be overlooked...
 

BM, I hope somebody is being paid more than minimum wage for building my bow.

LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!

RE: Elite GTO, should NOT be overlooked...
 

:D

RE: Elite GTO, should NOT be overlooked...
 

Coug, I would hope so too. :D I was talking in general.

There are alot more costs that have to be figured into the building of a bow than whats being portrayed in this post. It would be nice if the only cost of building the bow was just the materials, but the employees who assemble these bows need to be paid, along with the designers. The company then must ship the bows, I am pretty sure that isn't free, and with gas prices rising that will cause the expense of shipping these bows to the dealers to rise. Then, the guys selling these bows need to be paid. What about the electricity that is required to run the machines at the production facility and at the dealer? I agree that bows are overpriced, but it isn't as simple as saying the raw materials to build a bow cost $100 and the dealers sell them for $800 so we as consumers are getting "raped" out of $700. Factor in all the labor costs, shipping costs, and the cost to run these business's and the profit margin isn't going to be so exaggerated!