What are the other factors?

Hunting pressure?
Hunter numbers?
AR?

To this place you won't mention by name.

I guess I wasn't clear.......... It may not be bad for young bucks to breed. What I meant to say was ALL bucks will breed, even the inferior ones. The closer you get to a 1/1 ratio, the strongest, most fit and desirable bucks will do most of the breeding. The doe, when given the chance will try to hold out for a super specimen to breed with rather than take Pee Wee Herman because he's all she's got! Sort of like people.[:-]

Granted, some super stud bucks have smaller antlers but the chancesare a balance buck herd will have better antlers than an out of balance one.

I've personally witnessed this in an area of Wis.

In the '70s there were hardly any deer where I lived. By the early '80s we started seeing tracks then eventually deer themselves. From then until the mid to late '90s, some 2 1/2s and all 3 1/2s would make P&Y. From the late '90s through present, the 2 1/2s and 50% of the 3 1/2s won't make P&Y.

The main reason for this is over population. The problem is magnified by the lack of doe harvest. (Years of buck only tags). You only have so many bucks and too many does and with the trend in warmer winter combines to have even the doe fawns breed their first year. A lot of times the mature bucks get really stressed out trying to breed an over abundance of does and when January rolls around, gets cold, they shed their antlers and stop breeding. Well with a lot of un-bred does/fawns still coming into estrus in Jan and Feb., some of the lesser bucks which are not as stressed out and still have their antlers will do the breeding. This leads to smaller scrubbier racks and bodies. (along with less food from over population) Over population is also caused by developement (people), they won't let you hunt.

I have that in one spot I used to hunt our lease, it had alot to do with the surronding properties.

All the other places I hunt in NY I'm shocked if I don't see deer in a full day hunt.

Back when I started hunting you were lucky to see a deer the first few day's of deer season. That's why we had party permits right Atlas.

Kids todayhave it a lot better as far as deer numbers then we did back in the early 70's.

Holy crap!!! What happened to my thread!

Ok, Ijust "skimmed" through them all. Let me get one thing straight. When I'm talking about "managing herds" I could care less about the size of the bucks. In fact I would rather there NOT be an abundance of bigger bucks running around. I don't want to skew that number at all. I like to hunt an area that mother nature decided how big that buck got, not me.

I was just questioning why I felt the need to try and kill extra deer each and every year when I don't think (just my opinion) it hasmade an ounce of difference in the herd I hunt.

As an example, I've been walking through the Forest Preserves here in Illinois (no hunting allowed) for years and have made notice of the deer populations, no I didn't count them but anyone with half a brain can see a field full of deer and if that field has gotten more populated or less over the years....I've seen absolutely no discernibledifference in the numbers in 20 years....and nobody has hunted these deer and no agency and stepped in to control them (as far as I know..and I've inquired multiple times over the years) so I can only deduct that they have been on their own with only natural selection (whatever that may be) to control the numbers...


So what's my shooting 3-5 extra does a year in my smaller tract of land actually accomplishing? Besides me having fun doing it.

This is why I started this thread, great info here folks, keep it coming.

Those instances are not rare, they are extreme and do get that out of whack. I can only say this for Wis. I've hunted several areas where the ratio isfrom 1 buck/8-10 does to 1 buck /15+ does.

Then I hop across the border to Ill and hunt spots as good as 1/3.

The last five years in NY I have seen bigger bodied and racked bucks then I did the previous 15 years.This is with some hunters complaining about deer numbers.

Maybe I'm hunting different, but it appears some thing is going on.

That's why I'm totally against mandatory antler anything.

Last night on Quality Whitetails TV (QDMA) they said that that was what they originally thought but after research that included DNA testing they found that it wasn't true. Even in a herd with a good ratio all the bucks get in on the breeding, more or less equally. They even said that the majority twins and triplets that the does were carrying didn't even have the same sire.

Atlas where buck harvest is low TDM is fine.

When 70% bucks are getting wacked are 1.5 it's a issue.

Say it ain't so Charlie

I am just going on what I am reading and they say that it is rare.