This is why its called hunting and not getting!
 

Last year hunting I had 2 different opurtunties at 140" class deer while hunting with the recurve, thats what I hunt with. Both times I had a 140" buck at 25 yards, I didn't feel right in taking the shot, something didn't feel right, maybe it was the yardage, I'm thinking so! I've been asked by my friends why I didn't take the shot? My good friends know me and know why I didn't take the shot, most of my buddiesare compound buddies. My problem is allot of my buddies told me that when they bought there particular bow, the salesman told them that these new compounds these days can get out there. Does that make it right? To me I don't think so. The last 5 years my friends shooting compounds have wounded a heck of allot more deer then I have, actually I haven't wounded any. I'm not against compounds by any means but I do believe the salesman these days are terrible, what happened to the old ethics on our shots? The bows may be faster but the animals were shooting are still the same animals! The same people that I've talked to that were taking long shots years ago aren't having much better luck now with the same bows! This is not a post verse traditional verse non traditional! This is a post concerning the people who sell these bows and think they know there stuff! The reason I did post this is my buddy who shoots a brand new compound, 300 fps, I'm not mentioning the brand, that doesn't much matter! He took a 40 yard shot at a deer tonight standing still, calm as you can get he thought and he hit the deer high in the back, who knows if he shot high or if the deer ducked the arrow a little! When it comes right down to it the only reason he shot at this deer is because of what the big shot salesman told him, I've preached to him no on these long shots but I don't think he much cares coming from a traditional guy like myself! After 3 hours of looking he looks at me at starts to gripe, what happened? I feel terrible for the guy because I really have no answers. In the back of my mind I'm thinking, 40 yard shot, you get whats coming to ya! This friend of mine is huge into compounds, he's excellent on picking his spots on deer and is very good when target practicing at 40 yards at home, he respects me and my traditional ways of shooting and I respect his ways as well, when it comes right down to it he's wounding animals on these long out there shots, and so far I'm not because I choose not to take these long shots. I've preached to him my 2 cents on taking long shots but he keeps going back and saying the guys who sold me the bow tell me these bows are quick enough to take 40+ yard shots, there the pro's he tells me, there suppose to know what there talking about! Are they pro's? Heck no In my opinion, the speed of bows these days does increase arrow flight, does a 1/4 of a second mean much from what they use to be, heck no it doesn't!

RE: This is why its called hunting and not getting!
 

i completely agree with what you are saying, i mean i am young and dont know many "pros" but i will never take a shot at a deer more than 30 yards away with a compound bow...30 yards is even pushing it for me, i dont really care what the "pro" says about my bow, i just will not do it because there are too many factors. and also, i am shooting an older slower bow but even i had a 2008 bow, i still wouldnt take that shot.

but in the near future i would love to try and shoot with my recurve bow, it was my moms when she was younger and she has given it to me. its a very nice bow, surprisingly hard to pull back.

RE: This is why its called hunting and not getting!
 

A couple of things:

1) A .25 sec makes a difference for about 25 yards or less. Based on a deers reaction time ( a relaxed deer),I can shoot a deer out to 21 yards before it can duck my shot. I did these calculations one day while sitting in my stand. My bow shoots 275 fps. Bottom line.... the deer needs to be relaxed.

2) It's not the 40 yard shot it's the hunter. There are many people who are competent to take 40 yard shots. There are many who are not. I believe that Rob/PA/Bowyer took a doe at 41 yards this year. Atthis range it is not the speed that matters but the accuracy does. No matter what you shoot, if you're not accurate 100% of the time at 40 yards, you should not take the shot. This includes things that hinder accuracy such as bulky cold weather clothes if your not practiced up while wearing them.

RE: This is why its called hunting and not getting!
 

Shultzy with a can o worms post on a friday. ;)

I tell ya I gotta agree. I know shot distance selection is an individual thing, but selecting to take only best, highest percentag shots, helps you in a game that something can go wrong on ANY shot, so why add more variables.

RE: This is why its called hunting and not getting!
 

I don't know......

If you take this hard line....you dismiss almost EVERYONE who hunts, out West.

So schultzy.....if this statement (you said it) is true.....

What would one have to do to be "worthy" of attmepting this shot (in your eyes)? Is every shot at a game animal over 40 yds "unethical"?

RE: This is why its called hunting and not getting!
 

It's an individual decision. It really has nothing to do with the salesman. If you buy a car and the salesman tells you it can do 140mph, are you going to pull out of the lot and drive 140mph down the highway?

I have no problem with someone that can consistently KILL deer at 40 yards. Not consistently hit a target in their backyard, but has proven he has the ability to kill deer at a high success rate in the field at that yardage. Hats of to them, they are a better archer than me.

I do have a huge problem with someone that consistently shoots and either misses or wounds deer at that yardage. That person has no business taking a shot at 40 yards.

Personally there's no way I'll ever find out. I'm just not comfortable taking a shot at 40+ yards.I can whack a target all day long with good success, but I dont' see myself ever taking that shot to the woods with me. Just not confident enough.

RE: This is why its called hunting and not getting!
 

I agree with Greg the deer needs to be relaxed and that it isthe hunter,.25 sec at that distance yeah I would think that it does make a differance. Also does it matter what the salesman says whenhe is gettinghis information from the manufaturer to sell that particular brand andyou are the one out there in an uncontrolled environment taking the shot? It is all about the condition of the shot.

RE: This is why its called hunting and not getting!
 

maximum shot distance is asubjective thing. Weather, wind,equipment, available light(to see small branches) all come into play but the overwhelming factor is the attitude of the deer.

IMHO, the best situation is a rutting buck that is intent on a doe or an intruding buck. He will often fail to react as quickly as even a relaxed feeding deer. I've even had bucks in that situation react toa double lung hitwith nothing more than a jump or two only to look back ready to retaliate at the buck that must have hit em in the ribs.

Shots at awired deer that has either busted you or simply suspects something is wrong should be kept under 20 yards and far less is even better.

When asked by a new hunter, or working with kids, my advice is to find the maximum range where the hunter can place 5-6 arrows out of 6 in the kill zone of a target and cut it in half to come up with a max shooting distance at RELAXED, UNHURRIED deer.

RE: This is why its called hunting and not getting!
 

I was in a bow shop last year and a so called pro was selling a crossbow to a young kid. I was standing near by and this so called Pro was telling this kid that he could shoot a deer at 60 yards with his new Xbow[:-][:@]I said to myself you got to be kidding me. I started hunting with a recurve this year and my max is 15yards until I become more confident at 20yards. Even with a compound my max is 25 yards. I don't like the long shots even with the compound. BUT to each his own,if you think you can make the shot and are confident, I gess!

Hatchet Jack

RE: This is why its called hunting and not getting!
 

I totally agree with you. I could shoot alot further but Im not comfortable shooting past 30 yards. Im more comfortable letting the deer come back another day!

RE: This is why its called hunting and not getting!
 

A tip of the hat to GregH. His comment is spot on!

One must know and respect his effective range. Under all conidtions, you must be able to, at least, arrow a nine inch paper plate 100% of the time. When you can do that, you have determined your effective range. It will certainly be an individual thing...

RE: This is why its called hunting and not getting!
 

Is there such a thing as a relaxed deer? I don't know. I know for a fact that I had a "relaxed" deer drop enough to cause a high "nick" on his back at 19 yards from a bow shooting 285fps. He was feeding, head down, foreleg forward and at the shot, he dropped enough to "duck" the arrow. ON FILM, when you play it in slow motion, the arrow would have took the top of his heart. They can drop at a shot no matter what the speed, no matter what the distance.

Regarding 40+ yard shots, I honestly feel that deer are LESS likely to "jump/duck" the string/arrow at farther distances when "relaxed".

I've taken 5 shots at deer at or over 40 (42 being the longest) yards in 26 seasons. All resulting in a double lung/heart shots on 4 of the 5 and the 5th was a pefect shot. The arrow went exactly where I was aiming, a touch low. I thought he'd react and didn't. I sent my arrow nicking his underchest exactly where I was aiming. I'll never hold low again. He'd been my best buck to date. He was extremely nervous and never heard the bow/arrow.

Yardages are subject to ethics, conditions, abilitiy and the temperature of the deer. I've shot more 3D courses than I could honestly count right now, sorry to sound arrogant but I know my abilities and my limitations. I've missed more deer under 30 yards and only ever missed one over 30 yards and that was that pefect shot on that buck. I say perfect cause the arrow went where I wanted it too. I think I calm myself to take the farther shots and try to hard on the close ones. I've made the statement before that I'd sooner shoot a deer at 30-35 yards than I would at 20 yards because of many variables.

I agree with NY Bowhunter as well as BTBowhunters threads as well. I think they are very well put.

When I went elk hunting, my hunting partner and I religiously practiced out to 75 yards with Muzzy's, placing them into the 10 ring of a McKenzie bull elk every time. I don't know if I would have taken that shot on a live animal. I'm glad I was not put to the test, I killed my bull at 33 yards. He missed 4 bulls under 25 yards. He's an incredible shot but nerves and excitement plays more into shooting than ability at the moment of truth. He claimed to not being able to remember looking into the peep.

More than ability comes experience. Some can claim to hit a pie plate in their back yard everytime but may have no business shooting 40 yards at a live animal. They may never had the pressure doing that exact same thing. That means alot.

Use your best judgement, take only those shots you KNOW you can make and not THINK or HOPE you can make. Get out and shoot 3D as much as you can, that time and money allows. 3D WILL make you a better hunter.

Every year I'll continue to buy my hunting license, I wish I could buy a Getting license but PA doesnt' offer them. [8D]

RE: This is why its called hunting and not getting!
 

Good post Schultzy.

I don't shoot traditional to necessarily take more deer. It is not a need of mine. But there are a lot of people out there that are the complete opposite.

By comparision, I had a 160 class pass by at 30 yards this year past year. A kid the very next day took a 40 yard shot on him with a rage broadhead and his new BowTech. I actually saw the deer cross a field after being hit. The hit was perfect, but the kid only got a few inches of penetration and only took out one lung. I helped him track the deer for about a mile and the kid went back the next day to follow up. Never found him. Iasked him why he took that far of a shot with such a large mechanical and he told me that all his friends and a salesman told him to use it. Weird part was he actually had some fixedblades in his quiver. :eek::eek::eek:

RE: This is why its called hunting and not getting!
 

I personally don't think anybody or there comments are wrong on here. Every deer is different and place that same deer in a different spot say with the wind blowing away from him or lite rain maybe they just don't hear the shot as fast. I know we shoot year round we never stop shooting and some of the guys I shoot with are awesome shots on targets. But when it comes to deer they are different shooters, weather it's buck fever or something else they just can't hit the broadside of a barn when it's a deer. But they can shoot targets out to 50 yards and hit a5 inch circle everytime. So deer, hunter and conditions are all right answers. I have shot deer at 40 yards several times but I switched from a recurve to a compound when I got real serious about hunting big bucks because I was only confident out to 20yards with my recurve so I wanted the extra, and the funny thing is since I switched to a compound I have killed 5 biggins and not one has been over 20 yards.. Walt

RE: This is why its called hunting and not getting!
 

It's silly imo for anyone to take a shot just b/c a salesman told them they could do it. Consider this analogy, in the right hands, most high powered rifles are capable of killing an animal 500+ yds away, many would claim much further than that, but should you take that shot just b/c your equipment is capable?? Notunless that distance has been practiced religiously.Hail mary shots are just that - a prayer hoping to be answered.

Same with archery, it all comes down to experience, confidence and many hours of practicing in realistic hunting conditions, i.e., from a treestand in hunting clothes at 3d targets, not on a range where everything is perfect. This is done to determine your effective range, as has been stated.

I was hunting for does last weekend on a friends farm and had one stay on a food plot for 30 minutes, never had a clue I was around. She never came closer than 43 yards so I never attempted a shot. Others with more experience would have, but not me. Could have I made it? Maybe, I am fairly accurate out that far, but fairly is the key word. I'd rather not take a chance until I get more confidence at that range.

RE: This is why its called hunting and not getting!
 

Is it ethical to shoot over 400 yds with a rifle? Some, not a 30-30 but a 7 mag heck yeah. A 300 ft/sec is very capable of shooting 40 yd. You opt to shoot a recurve and a max of 25 yds. He shoots something else and "should" know his limatations. His decision. I sure hope he wasnt hunting out great state on the 3 of Jan.

RE: This is why its called hunting and not getting!
 

Good post.

RE: This is why its called hunting and not getting!
 

You have to wonder about the arrow weight in this instance and if a heavier arrow would have made a difference.

Like others have already said, salesman can say whatever they want it is the hunter's responsibility to be proficient enough with his weapon of choice. Not understanding a weapons limitations, that includes the arrows too for bowhunters and ammunition for firearms, leads to poor shot choices.

Does anyone think that mandatory bowhunter education before getting a bowhunting license would help with these types of problems?

RE: This is why its called hunting and not getting!
 

I think a lot of people have to realize that there are a TON of clueless people in this world. Whether they hunt, kayak, or crochet, they have no clue and depend on the persons selling them the equipment to point them in the right direction and tell them what they can and cannot do. While you and I may take a sales persons comment and think he’s a dork, another person will view it as gospel. You can’t expect everyone heading afield to research and thoroughly pour over every detail of what they are getting into. Which brings us to the mandatory education. Which I am on the fence of. I do feel it is a great idea, but I struggle with the logistics of widespread implementation and subject matter to cover. But that is a different topic.

So you take a person who only hears the ads, the shows, the sales person and according to that, they have a tool that can take animals at great distances. But what they don’t know is that there is a VERY limited set of conditions for that to be true. So it is no wonder that many arrows are launched that never should be.

A lot on here have the right direction that numerous factors go into determining shot selection and distance. I lean to the short side when it comes to deer, but heading out west for an elk, I extend that quite a bit and feel completely comfortable doing so. What is tough to get across to people are all those factors hat should be considered, and even still, sometimes it cannot be completely defined because experience weighs in. Ability to read deer and just “know” the situation takes time to learn and varies from person to person.

RE: This is why its called hunting and not getting!
 

Yes...... although relaxed for a deer may seem hyper paranoid for most! [:-]

RE: This is why its called hunting and not getting!
 

Some good posts, and good point Greg...relaxed for a deer is hyper paranoid for us. LOL

Just like TeeJay pointed out in rifles, another example could be said that there are recurve/longbow bowhunters who have no business shooting more than 15 yards. That's just the way it is.

And Rybo makes a great point too,

RE: This is why its called hunting and not getting!
 

It would be interesting to see a poll with percentages of misses in shots under 20 yards, 20 to35 yards, and over35 yards. I'd be willing to bet therewould be a fairlyhigh percentage (not number) of missed shots at close range compared to mid range.

RE: This is why its called hunting and not getting!
 

No he wasn't, it was out of state!

RE: This is why its called hunting and not getting!
 

Good points everyone! I enjoyed all your feed back and opinions. Thanks

RE: This is why its called hunting and not getting!
 

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rob/PA Bowyer

Is there such a thing as a relaxed deer?



I once heard a Whitetail Deer described as " A bundle of nerves ready to explode

RE: This is why its called hunting and not getting!
 

Actually there was a thread a week or so ago on everyones batting average. There was some misses at close range also but the majority of the misses were 30+ yard shots.

RE: This is why its called hunting and not getting!
 

If your friend is a good shot and a good hunter he will know what he can do and doesn't need to listen to anyone telling him how far he can shoot (like a salesperson). A faster bow can in some instances lessen the error in the distance judged but it is not going to help a poor shot. I hold good groups at 40 yards but have yet to take a shot over 30 yards and always prefer 20 or even less, the arrow hits the target so much faster with a lot more penetration. On the same token things happen at 20 yards and deer are lost occasionally.

RE: This is why its called hunting and not getting!
 

Longest shot I have ever taken with my bow is 34 yards...I practiced and felt comfortable up to 35 yards with my bow at that time....put the buck down within 50 yards....today I do not feel comfortable shooting much over 30 yards while in the woods because I do not practice at that extended range anymore---I practice up to 30 yards and so far the last 5 deer I have shot the last two years have only averaged 15 yards from my stand. So lucky me.

RE: This is why its called hunting and not getting!
 

Good point on the clothes thing!

RE: This is why its called hunting and not getting!
 

Not all the time GMMAT are shots taken at 40 yards unethical! Is it a high percentage shot though? We all know that answer! As for hunting out west, not everyone who hunts out west relys on the 40 yard shot. You asked in my opinion is it ethical, come on GMMAT, I think your trying to start an argument on this one!

RE: This is why its called hunting and not getting!
 

The whole point of this thread wasn't to knock down hunters one bit! The point I was trying to make is that these salesman are telling these 1st time bow hunters that you can take these long out there shots! Its a big sales pitch, the faster the bow the farther you can shoot, any young stud is going to believe this stuff! Sorry folks but this is the wrong message to the young or unexperienced hunter!

RE: This is why its called hunting and not getting!
 

You don't shoot.... you won't get them.[8D] That's just a big deer out there. He's not 140 class deer until he's measured. LOL I seriously doubt salesmen are telling all your friends these new compounds will really reach out there. Seems like you're saying you have a lot of friends and none of them can shoot and they all take questionable shots and your words, they're all wounding deer. Everyone in the world is a slob.... except you. Well hell boy, get some new friends if they bother you that much. Curious, how many deer have you killed with your recurve?

RE: This is why its called hunting and not getting!
 

Work real hard to become a great shot and twice as hard to be a great hunter! Knowing your limitations and knowing the disposition of the animal at the time of the shot is every thing.Size of the animal (meaning size of kill zone),angle of the shot,your own temperment at the time,calm and steady,cold and shaky.All these things enter in to the equation.
95% of my practicing takes place at 50 yards.I much prefer hunting shots that are 30 yards and in.I have shot two bucks at approaching 40 yards,one was a perfect shot and the other the buck took a step as I shot and I ended up hitting way back,fortunately I hit a main artery and he didn't go 15 yards.
To those that can consistently kill game at the longer distances my hat goes off to them. I also have a close friend who is an exceptional archer,and he his so confidant in his ability that he has taken shots that he really shouldn't have.Like the strong armed quarterback who always thinks he can thread the needle.Instead of the interception or incomplete pass with us it is wounding game.We owe it to the animal to stay within our capabilities.

RE: This is why its called hunting and not getting!
 

hunter ethics lol, that is an american invention. i practice with my bow all year round, i shoot 6 inch groups at 70 yards. shooting at a deer 40 yards away is no problem cause i know my bow like it is an extention of my hand. if you can't shoot a deer at 25 yards then it is only your fault for not preparing yourself. in each situation that you are presented with in the wild lets you decide what you are willing to shoot, to each his own. all i am saying is it is funny how people say you shouldn't shoot more than 30 max. i have had pass throughs at 60 and i will say that the buck you passed up cause you need more time on the range will easily be in my range when he comes by me. i am sorry to be kind of harsh but you can't push your "hunter ethics" on me, you need to see that there is a problem with your confidence and shooting ability and then you can fix it.

RE: This is why its called hunting and not getting!
 

I'm not pushing my ethics on anyone! Read the whole thread, the thread was about salesman, not about hunters taking long shots! This whole thread turned into it though! Stick to the subject of it. And you say I'm not preparing myself right cause I can't take a 25 yard shot? You haven't a clue do you? My hats off to the experienced folks who can take there 30 to 40 yard shots.

RE: This is why its called hunting and not getting!
 

This thread got kind of tweaked away from its original intent.(at least the way I saw it)
Shultzy just tried to say that MUCH more goes into determining ones maximum shot distance besides salesmen input on how good the equipment is.

RE: This is why its called hunting and not getting!
 

Saved me some typing rybo, I thought I had missed something.
Cant hardly blame the sales people though,I know when I draw back on a deer it only takes a split second for me to know if its an ethical, or withen my confidence zone shot. Sometimes theurge to be successful over rides common sense.

RE: This is why its called hunting and not getting!
 

Well it's obvious that Shultzy has had a problem with a salesman somewhere in his life. LOL He calls them "Big Shot Salesmen".... I call them proshop owners. It's all in the perception and view point. Really, it's suppose to be fun. You appear to have gotten all bent out of shape on the cause of these "Wounded" animals and missed shots. It's not the saleman.... it's the shooter. I personnally don't know people that go around wounding all the deer your friends seem to. They miss once in a while, but they all don't go around wounding deer. It's harder to wound a deer than it is to miss.[8D] It's suppose to be fun. You can't be the conscience of everyone in the woods. You say you've "preached" to them. Well give it a break and have some fun or find some new friends. Don't preach to them.

RE: This is why its called hunting and not getting!
 

Its more the hunters fault then anything. Every hunter should know his limitations. That isn't up to the salesmen.

The salesmen isn't lieing. The bow probably is capable of killing deer at 40yds. Its the hunter that isn't in most cases.

RE: This is why its called hunting and not getting!
 

The problem lies within the individual hunter, too many rely on there equipment and the hype of speed instead of relying on themselves to make good decisions.