More arrow speed drivel... Trajectory chart
12-13-2007 | 10:24 AM
#71
Dominant Buck
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 26,274
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From: land of the Lilliputians, In the state of insanity
RE: More arrow speed drivel... Trajectory chart
ORIGINAL: Paul L Mohr
Did you even look at the link I posted and compared it to yours? I also have Ontarget and another one on my computer and have played these scenerios over and over, as well as testing them with 4 different bows, dozens of different arrows and at ranges out to 80 yards.
I would take the time to use some better software to show the differences, but I don't know if I want to waste my time. You simply don't care, you are never wrong. It is futile trying to explain something to you. You are right and the rest of us wrong even if we have better software and decades of experience to the contrary.
Smartie Artie has probably forgotten more about archery than you think you know.
I will say it again, our 13 year old autistic kid is easier to reason with.
Paul
Did you even look at the link I posted and compared it to yours? I also have Ontarget and another one on my computer and have played these scenerios over and over, as well as testing them with 4 different bows, dozens of different arrows and at ranges out to 80 yards.
I would take the time to use some better software to show the differences, but I don't know if I want to waste my time. You simply don't care, you are never wrong. It is futile trying to explain something to you. You are right and the rest of us wrong even if we have better software and decades of experience to the contrary.
Smartie Artie has probably forgotten more about archery than you think you know.
I will say it again, our 13 year old autistic kid is easier to reason with.
Paul
12-13-2007 | 10:37 AM
#72
Thread Starter
Giant Nontypical
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 5,716
Likes: 0
RE: More arrow speed drivel... Trajectory chart
Yes, Paul - I looked at it. I mean, it does a good job of showing your speed degradation and energy loss downrange- but the trajectory numbers are useless, since you can't set the "zero" at any certain fixed distance. Here again, I'm not sure what you're trying to argue about or show me.
I'mtalking about trajectory,and you're telling me aboutenergy retention. 2 totally different things.
I am not wrong. My numbers matched the OnTarget numbers that Archer58 ran... And they match my real-world testing. I don't know what else to tell ya. I'm sure it bothers you that my happy little chart is indeed correct (within an acceptable range) - but I can't change that.
If you want, I can go back and edit the datareplace it with numbers that Irandomly pick from a hat- then that way you and Artie canfinally relax nowthat my happy little chartwillno longer beaccurate.
I'mtalking about trajectory,and you're telling me aboutenergy retention. 2 totally different things.
I am not wrong. My numbers matched the OnTarget numbers that Archer58 ran... And they match my real-world testing. I don't know what else to tell ya. I'm sure it bothers you that my happy little chart is indeed correct (within an acceptable range) - but I can't change that.
If you want, I can go back and edit the datareplace it with numbers that Irandomly pick from a hat- then that way you and Artie canfinally relax nowthat my happy little chartwillno longer beaccurate.
I should have paid attention in physics!
12-13-2007 | 11:37 AM
#74
Giant Nontypical
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 9,175
Likes: 0
RE: More arrow speed drivel... Trajectory chart
quicksilver, if ever we should meet face to face, I invite you to call me 'Artie' then. We'll see howinsolent anddisrespectfulyou are when you don't have a computer screen and hundreds of miles between us. Until then, you're on my ignore list. You earned it.
12-13-2007 | 12:33 PM
#78
Nontypical Buck
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 4,679
Likes: 0
From: Albany, NY
RE: More arrow speed drivel... Trajectory chart
ORIGINAL: Arthur P
Until then, you're on my ignore list.
Until then, you're on my ignore list.
12-13-2007 | 12:39 PM
#79
Nontypical Buck
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 1,482
Likes: 0
From: IA/WI/IL
RE: More arrow speed drivel... Trajectory chart
WellI must say thanks guys for putting all that info out there guys. The math checks of course but there were a couple variables out there which were brought up that I had not thought of on an idividual bow level. The math doesn't lie but it can be very deceptive when it is overly simplified (as in the charts). That is coming from a math minor and an engineer also.
12-13-2007 | 05:01 PM
#80
Giant Nontypical
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 6,634
Likes: 0
From: HENDERSON KY USA
RE: More arrow speed drivel... Trajectory chart
ORIGINAL: quiksilver
Yes, Tfox, but if you're playing thosegames with the trajectory - you'd behunting with a bow that hits over 3" hot inside 20 yards (where most actual hunting shots are taken, for me at least). I'll admit that if you fudge your zero out to 27 yds,your trajectoryisn't so bad at 310 (that's still smokin', as far as hunting setups go), but as you drop down under 275, you start to see the numbers getting out of whack pretty fast. I never said that you had a "bad" trajectory. I just said that if you zero at 20 yards, this is what it will be. It is what it is.
IMO, this is where a "hunter" and a "3d shooter" will butt heads.A competitive archer willalmost never take a 6-yard shot at a moving targetfrom a 25' platform, froze solid and running on 3 hours of sleep.They only shoot at non-moving styrofoam between15 and 39 yards... For you guys, one-pin 3+" high at 13 yards doesn't seem so bad. That's where a good 3d setup becomes a bad hunting setup.
3d guys set up for the shots thatthey are most likely to encounter (i.e. - a 28 yard broadside black bear target) - and that's fair. Bowhunters set up for the shots thatthey are most likely to encounter (i.e. - a 9 yard quartering buck - walking away - with 12 seconds to get the shot off - leaning away from the tree to get a clear lane).So, along those lines, I really don't think there's anything wrong with a one-pin hunter being zeroed at 20 yards. That's where most ofmy shotsare... So... It's only natural that we use that as my baseline in the field.
You keep arguing with me here,but I'm not sure what you're arguing about. It is what it is. Every speed and trajectory has its own parabola. The slower it's going, the more drastic the curve. You can play all the games you want with where it's zero'ed, but it doesn't change the fact that the slower it's moving, the worse the trajectory becomes.
__________________________________________________ _______________________________
Paul - this chart WILL tell you what the trajectory of any given bow will be. The shaft, fletchings, bow - do NOT matter. Newton's law of falling bodies. The difference between how THIS chart can be accurate, while the "drop speed calculator" will be off is simple: This calculator accounts for your zero and trajectory. The drop calculators just run a generic "9.8 meters per second squared" calculation - working backward from how far it fell, to attain "time in flight" and plugging in the yardage numbers to get a rough guess of speed.
__________________________________________________ _______________________________
Burnie: I understand that the speed does degrade, and this chart doesn't account for it. But even if it did, the numbers wouldn't be all that much different. That's why I went out and confirmedmy ownballisticsunder "real world" conditions on my own. There are external factors that influence the numbers in both directions, and the result: it balances out fairly well. It's not exact, but it's as close as you're gonna get without wasting your life doing 30 pages of high-level physics.
__________________________________________________ _______________
Just so we're all on the same page: A few pages ago, I was the village idiot for coming up with this ridiculous ballistics table. Now that you all have had time to play with your OnTarget software and pick at it - we realize now that the table is indeed correct? But, now we're just saying that my table is unrealistic, because nobody should be out there with just a 20-yard pin.
Yes, Tfox, but if you're playing thosegames with the trajectory - you'd behunting with a bow that hits over 3" hot inside 20 yards (where most actual hunting shots are taken, for me at least). I'll admit that if you fudge your zero out to 27 yds,your trajectoryisn't so bad at 310 (that's still smokin', as far as hunting setups go), but as you drop down under 275, you start to see the numbers getting out of whack pretty fast. I never said that you had a "bad" trajectory. I just said that if you zero at 20 yards, this is what it will be. It is what it is.
IMO, this is where a "hunter" and a "3d shooter" will butt heads.A competitive archer willalmost never take a 6-yard shot at a moving targetfrom a 25' platform, froze solid and running on 3 hours of sleep.They only shoot at non-moving styrofoam between15 and 39 yards... For you guys, one-pin 3+" high at 13 yards doesn't seem so bad. That's where a good 3d setup becomes a bad hunting setup.
3d guys set up for the shots thatthey are most likely to encounter (i.e. - a 28 yard broadside black bear target) - and that's fair. Bowhunters set up for the shots thatthey are most likely to encounter (i.e. - a 9 yard quartering buck - walking away - with 12 seconds to get the shot off - leaning away from the tree to get a clear lane).So, along those lines, I really don't think there's anything wrong with a one-pin hunter being zeroed at 20 yards. That's where most ofmy shotsare... So... It's only natural that we use that as my baseline in the field.
You keep arguing with me here,but I'm not sure what you're arguing about. It is what it is. Every speed and trajectory has its own parabola. The slower it's going, the more drastic the curve. You can play all the games you want with where it's zero'ed, but it doesn't change the fact that the slower it's moving, the worse the trajectory becomes.
__________________________________________________ _______________________________
Paul - this chart WILL tell you what the trajectory of any given bow will be. The shaft, fletchings, bow - do NOT matter. Newton's law of falling bodies. The difference between how THIS chart can be accurate, while the "drop speed calculator" will be off is simple: This calculator accounts for your zero and trajectory. The drop calculators just run a generic "9.8 meters per second squared" calculation - working backward from how far it fell, to attain "time in flight" and plugging in the yardage numbers to get a rough guess of speed.
__________________________________________________ _______________________________
Burnie: I understand that the speed does degrade, and this chart doesn't account for it. But even if it did, the numbers wouldn't be all that much different. That's why I went out and confirmedmy ownballisticsunder "real world" conditions on my own. There are external factors that influence the numbers in both directions, and the result: it balances out fairly well. It's not exact, but it's as close as you're gonna get without wasting your life doing 30 pages of high-level physics.
__________________________________________________ _______________
Just so we're all on the same page: A few pages ago, I was the village idiot for coming up with this ridiculous ballistics table. Now that you all have had time to play with your OnTarget software and pick at it - we realize now that the table is indeed correct? But, now we're just saying that my table is unrealistic, because nobody should be out there with just a 20-yard pin.
I will respond to this and then read the rest of the responses,at 10 yards,you WANT to hit 2-3 inches high anyway for you to catch top of lung on near side and to catch bottom of lungs on the far side so with a 1 pin setup to be a little high at close ranges,you never have to hold high,you can always aim for center and never worry again about aiming for the exit.
PLUS,I am finding your numbers a little inaccurate at close ranges because no where am I seeing a peep height setting,and that is a huge deal for close range shooting.
AND,I have shot many targets at 1-10 yards at 3-d shoots.For some reason,the clubs still think they can fool the open shooters with this one.1 yard was shot for 73 on my last 3-d rig.
If nothing else comes out of this thread,hopefully people start to understand more about arrow trajectory and drop per yard.