RE: I always hear this story...
 

RE: I always hear this story...
 

I'm thinkin radius....dang...what business am "I" in...lol:eek::D

RE: I always hear this story...
 

No generalities? You ask a question and then make up rules that make it impossible to answer?[8D] Unless you catch the deer standing in the scrape or making the rub, like you say, generalities is all you've got to go on with scrapes and rubs!

GENERALLY, as said above, you can get a pretty good idea of the size of the buck by the size of the rub and how bad he trashed the tree and surrounding brush. Little bucks will generally pick on saplings and rub lower down. Bigger bucks will often rub bigger trees, rub higher and do a lot more damage.

Then, with scrapes, the buck that made the scrape is not the only buck that will visit it. A dominant buck will make his own scrape right on top of one made by a lesser buck.

It's not a good idea, IMO, to hunt over scrapes and rubs because you never know when they're going to be visited again. But you do know deer need food and water every day. If you find big rubs, and scrapes that have been getting hit hard and heavy, at least you've got a pretty good idea you've got a bruiser somewhere close by.

After that, it's up to you to figure out where he lives, where he feeds and waters, what his travel patterns are to get to feed and water, and set your stands to take advantage of the prevailing winds in the area... In other words, doing your homework.

Or you just set up anywhere, place absolute faith in your scent reduction products and trust to luck. Of course, if you take that route you might as well just go right on down to the tattoo parlor and have 'em put a big "L" on your forehead. :D

RE: I always hear this story...
 

Diameter is what????????????? "one foot across" I'd love to see your trig skills at work.;)

I truly am sorry about your reading comprehension difficulties , it couldhelp explainyour poor math skillsand your lack of ability to retain facts.

I clearly explained how shed hunting in the spring gives you volumes of imformation on how to pattern a buckthat you can then target in the fall and you retort with fairy tales and what if's.

You have a good one now,

RE: I always hear this story...
 

I love when it gets down to insults....lol.

THE reason I mentioned "generalities" is.....it's a guess unless you see the animal use the scrape or rub. How do I know? One morning, '05 season....I set up 9 yds from an active scrape. 1st buck that worked it was a half-rack spike. Disappointed...I thought at that time he was the only one using it. Next buck to use it was a nice little 6-pointer. NEXT buck to use it.....another 6-pointer. LAST buck to use it, that morning....was a BUTTON BUCK.

Big boy strolls by the field edge at 10:15 that morning and never gives it a look or sniff....though he came within 6 or 7 yds of it.

If a man wasn't sitting in my tree that morning.....what could this scrape tell him?

I can tell ya.....ANY buck will make a scrape on top of another one by what I've seen. I've witnessed multiple bucks on scrapes 3 or 4 times. Never in the presence of the dominant buck......but I've also never seen him work one. I watched him thrash the ever living hell out of a licking branch, once....but never seen HIS scrape.

RE: I always hear this story...
 

And this was meant as a compliment???????

You claim to listen but you seldom hear!

RE: I always hear this story...
 

GMMAT just because a mature deer does not "work" a scrape does no mean he did not check it.

Most of the time IMO mature deer check them from down wind side where they can not be seen. Why I seldom sit "over" a scrape, but in funnel he may use to scent check it from a distance. I will be downind from the scrape, and be setup so the deer is in front of me.

RE: I always hear this story...
 

It was a question. No insult, there.

Some people get mad every time someone comes up with an alternate (though not "new") method of approaching hunting. Usually they cansimply pass offwhat the person's saying to "experience"........"age"......"whatever".

Of course...insults always work, too.

RE: I always hear this story...
 

Germ:

Not the reason I stated he didn't work it.

RE: I always hear this story...
 

Yea but ..but..but if he sees you your screwed anyway. [:o] ;)

RE: I always hear this story...
 

Hey Jim.....Just so I know who I'm talking with (ya know...with the internet thing and all)......post up some photos of your past few years mature bucks. You were in the contest, weren't you?

Heck...I only killed my first five with the bow last year.

RE: I always hear this story...
 

I am like a panther in the tree:D


Ok I am out

RE: I always hear this story...
 

Wow I wouldn't have known that if you didn't posted around a hundred times since the season ended.

Not that hard to do especially if your hunting a zoo.:D

RE: I always hear this story...
 

And the insults keep coming!

That's a great way to bolster a point!:eek:

That used to bother me......now I see it for what it is. See above.

RE: I always hear this story...
 

If you think that was insult your skin is very thin.

Obviously you didn't see it for what it was.

RE: I always hear this story...
 

Who an inexperienced bowhunter, wait that's right you gained way more experience by shooting those five in one season then a guy that has hunted for years and only shot three.

RE: I always hear this story...
 

Geez I don't take a lot of photo's nor do I enter contests I guess I have no experience.

Ok i'm done.

RE: I always hear this story...
 

It is possible to get down from a stand and leave the area undetected, I've done it many times.

If a buck sees you of course he's alerted to your presence. A deer isn't like a light switch, either on or off, there are many variables that attribute the accuteness of their alarm. Like humans, you see a shady looking person standing on the street between you and your parked car. No visable weapons and he's not doing anything out of the ordinary. Do you .... A) Run terrified in the opposite direction for your life
B) Circle quietly around
C) Cautiously approach keeping an eye on him.
For deer, the higher the degree of alarm, the more drastic the method of survival is. This is the same for their memory too. If you shoot at a buck and slightly wound it, there's a good chance you won't see him from your stand for the rest of the season. If he busts you in your stand, you may or may not see him again from your stand and if you do, it will be from a safer distance. He will be eyeballing your stand. If he sees you walking out in a calm non-threatening manner, he'll take note and be cautious, but chances are you will see him from your stand because he don't know where it is. Although he may back track you to your stand. I've seen proof of this in the snow.

Deer are like people in that they all have different personalities and different tolerances for danger. In most cases, does, fawns and young bucks, 2 1/2 and younger will usually try to verify two of their senses to confirm their suspicion of danger. For bucks 3 1/2 and older they only need one sense to be verified. The older bucks only need a suspicion, no verification. If somethimg doesn't seem right, their out of there no questions asked. I believe that there some bucks that won't come out until after dark and never expose themselves to danger. Their survival is of the uttmost importance, even more than breeding.

RE: I always hear this story...
 

I didn't say anything about you, Charlie......but so far I'm being ridiculed by people who I have no idea if they know what they're talking about or not. You insult me....but I can't ask whom I'm dealing with?

Bawana's been in the contest since its' inception....and I just thought a man that knew so much about mature buck killin could show me the fruits of his expertise. I didn't ask to see yours.....but here's your time to shine if you so choose. Your call.

RE: I always hear this story...
 

Jeff I still drive the truck in those pictures if that counts for anything. ;)

RE: I always hear this story...
 

Greg..that's good stuff.......

The crux of my whole point in all of this was.....If THIS is what you're considering an ABSOLUTE......

Isnt it then possible to hunt a stand with a swirling wind and NOT be detected by a mature buck? You seem to be saying he MIGHT see you leave....but he WILL smell you.

If this is what you believe....I respect that.

RE: I always hear this story...
 

A lot of the time your best knowlege of mature bucks comes from the ones that got away rather than from the ones you've killed.

RE: I always hear this story...
 

Jim....You sent me photos of two dead deer in the back of a pickup.....with no weapons, no hunter.....a harvest photo of an elk and a naked girl.

I concede....lol:D

Out......

RE: I always hear this story...
 

I'll buy that, Greg. Good luck this Fall.

RE: I always hear this story...
 

I don't come here for atta boys or to impress anyone.No need for me to shine.

Insults ?? If this upsets you you wouldn't last ten minutes in my local watering hole with the a$$ busters I hang out with.

RE: I always hear this story...
 

There is no absolute when it comes to hunting deer.

It may be possible to hunt a stand with a swirling wind and not get busted but it's not a chance that I'm willing to take. Him seeing you at all is bad enough, but I'd rather have him see me leaving than to pin point my stand because the game is over then.

RE: I always hear this story...
 

I got the pics off the "internet" and I really didn't mean to send the one of my wife ,My bad......

RE: I always hear this story...
 

Hey Dan.....

If you ever read this....I concede. I am still retarded.

RE: I always hear this story...
 

bawanajim, do you have a picture of yourself? I can't picture what you look like. I see that we're close in age ( me being older), I'm just wondering if you've got that "wisdom look" that I've obtained from living this long! [:-]Lets just say that I've paid my dues and it's starting to show![&o]

RE: I always hear this story...
 

Here's Jim hanging his newest sign.. They can take years off now with this botox stuff.

RE: I always hear this story...
 

I'd hate to publicly reveal my identity ,It would ruin my ability to publicly rub elbows with the common folk out there.You know photo opps & book signings.;)

And of course those incessant stalkers like Francis that are just obsessed with a very style of life they will never achieve.

RE: I always hear this story...
 

LT, I'll try to answer your question to the best of my ability, as you've asked it, with my experience while hunting.
1. I'm not the "Diehard" who believes practices in the deer hunting woods are an Absolute in any way but there are consistent trends that do happen.
I attempt to remain flexible due to the conditions as they present themselves in the area I'm familiar with...and I stress the key being "Familiar".
Familiarity with the area your hunting, and theWeather conditions that occur,gives you the experience of how deer react, by witnessing it in person, over mulitple years. Example: "This deer did this, at this spot,when these conditions were present". When it happens that way on more than one occassion...it becomes a trend. When it happens that way on multiple occassions you can use that information in how you hunt that area. The more your hunting an area the more information you have to go off of to make the decisions in your setups or changes in them while hunting.
2. I do believe the more you change your initial plan of hunting an area the more chances you have of "Getting Busted".
If your plan was good to start with becauseyou've done the homework(thier home-not ours) temporary changes in weather conditions are already considered in your initial setup.
I do believe that with the information we now have availible these days that we did not have in years past we can use that to our advantage. For instance if we know that in the morning the wind will be heading in a certain direction(familiarity from experience AND weather reports confirming the same)...but in the afternoon alow pressure areais pushing through and the direction will change...it makes sense to input that information into your plan. Plan your move ahead of time so your decreasing the chances of busting out the deer you've been waiting on.
If you have not taken into consideration what could happen with the weather later on in the day...your plan was not complete to begin with.
3. Good Stand Placement is IMHO the result of many things. Years of seeing how deer use the cover to travel an area being on the top of the list for me. Thier using it with the best possible conditions in thier favor..most of the time. Though I do give them credit for amazing abilities I do not believe they are infallable and without the chance to make a rare mistake. I also believe that on the rare occassion they are susceptable to "Information Overload"...especially in a situation when the conditions are changing rapidly. Though they can process many inputs at once...they are going to react to the "Most Clear and Present Danger" that they sense. If anyone believes they know exactly what that is on every occassion I find that very hard to believe since we do not experience thier abilities or even come close. I believe they can remember something about an area where they felt or sensed something that was not safe. I do believe however thatsituation can be forgotten in thier minds if the conditions have them reacting to something they feel is more of an immediate danger.
4. Deer are creatures of habit. Thier habits have kept them alive at least up to that point you've seen them. Mature deer get that way because thier habits are better than other deer. I believe that alot of deer that had the capability of become mature, old, and yes...Smart deer were killed early. Older deer make less mistakes then thier less experienced cohorts who end up on alot of dinner plates gave them information they became conditioned to. They got shot! That Old buck that was following the scent trail of a hot doe was preceded by a younger buck. When He gets to the area the younger buck was killed at your field dressing or theres a gut pile. IMHO....He'll remember that for awhile! When it happens again because we humans think we have that area figured out...it's just more of an informational lesson on his part which continues to reinforce what he's learned/sensed up to that point.
5. Deer pattern people just as much as we attempt to pattern them if not more.This goes back to thier survival instinct and the quantity of lessons they have learned throughout thier lives. I believe that a benefit can be obtained by using a standsite that is lesshas less than perfect conditions..but only on a rare occassion. On the occassion that a deer I'm after is using a travel corridor that is relatively inaccessable I will put up a stand and use it in that area in hopes that it will change his travel to a better situation for my other stand nearby. I could get anchance at him/her there however if he's/she's getting pushed through by other infleunces and pays less attention at the time to my intrusion.
Yes..I do attempt to pattern Does as well...especially those that for whatever reason have picked me off while I'm waiting for them to pass by because someone else is following them and He's who I'm after[:@]

I believe the best we can hope for is to give the deer the least amount of information possible that we are there...before it's too late for them to do anything about it. Use what we do know about an area, including as much information as we have availible(including the other hunters whotell us how they use,or we watch silently from a treestand, usethe area) ;), and place our standsites in thea way that thier not included in a deers informational process. Adapt to changes we know are coming and add those that suprise us toour own informational download to factor into anduse the next time. Remain willing to be Flexible and change what we believe, and how wehunt,when information happens in the process ofhunting, pre-season scouting, or at anytime other than that...
(I'm not sure when that 3rd one is though...LOL...there's "Hunting" and "Scouting" in my book):D


BTW, Your comment about the "Thongs" was hilarious:D:D:D
That subjectwas once tense around here(no pun intended) for awhile...whenI used one of my wife's from the laundry and placed it on the upwind side of a trail. She realized it was missing and in a fit of pure stupidity I told her the truth and how i used it. At first she was quite upset(actually for many hours) then after the blessed silence occurred she asked me if it worked....I was packaging the venison and simply pointed to the cutting board:)

RE: I always hear this story...
 

OGW....

That was a good read.

RE: I always hear this story...
 

OGW, I agree that your post was a good read.

Sometimes though, I wonder about these big old mature bucks. Most folks seem to think they got old because they were "smart", that they "learned" how to do what they do, by repeated human contact. That negative human experience has taught them these things. Could it be that the opposite is actually true, and they were the naturally skittish ones to begin with, the "outcasts" and it was this trait that allowed them to survive, when their peers around them were killed off? Kind of a chicken and the egg debate, and ultimately unprovable in any case, but it is good food for thought. In all reality it is probably a combination of the two factors, that varies with each individual.

RE: I always hear this story...
 

Fodder for another thread??? I AGREE with your assessment.

I think the longer a mature buck lives.....the more human scent he's subjected to.....and the less danger is associated with that scent (and what in the WORLD can have that deer associate "danger".....unless he's been shot, scared, etc...?).....the more tolerant he becomes. Why would it be the other way around? If he's smart enough to see a man walking in the woods and not associate that with "danger" (unless he's acting "predatory"????????)...then why would he AUTOMATICALLY associate a human with "danger" as he got older? What's prompting him to do this?

You're right.....it can't be proven EITHER way. From everything I read and from common sense.......ALL mature bucks are in transition to becoming completely nocturnal. We just catch them sometime (hopefully) in their journey (if we're lucky).

I'm not saying anything other than.....I think there's FAR less of them (Mature bucks).....and that's why there's far fewer of them killed. I'm not saying they're easy to kill. Sheer numbers dictate that isn't the case.

RE: I always hear this story...
 

I believe this pretty much sums up my tactics in a nutshell. The element of suprise will always be the predator's victory.

And this statement is worth a lot of backstraps in my opinion.

LT

RE: I always hear this story...
 

They always come from the wrong direction.:D

RE: I always hear this story...
 

If I just got in the stand and the wind shifted I would leave. If I was sitting there for 2 hours already I would stay. I hunt 20 to 25 ft off the ground so most of my scent is going over the deer anyway. You never know 100 percent where the deer are going or coming either. They do change up every once in a while and fool you.

RE: I always hear this story...
 

i agree 100percent just like people who go out everyday an check trail cameras its stupid all it does is puts more pressure on that spot an it ruins your spot for the big boys

RE: I always hear this story...
 

Ive been bowhunting for 26 years, Im not a pro by any meansbut I spend at least 60 days a season in the woods hunting whitetails. Everyone has opinions, views and different ideas on hunting so I cant really say any replies are right or wrong, some I agree with more than others based on my own personal knowledge or perception of what will cause a deer to bust me because of wind. Here we go ....

To me wind direction is the number one thing I try know ahead of my hunting a stand location.By knowing ahead of time what direction the wind is "suppossed" to be blowing will rarelycause me get out of a stand. If it changes someafter Im in the stand,then I hope using scent control sprays, rubber boots, etc will help me out some. If its really blowing right where I know the deer will be coming from and its still early in the hunt and I dont have any deer around me I'll more than likely get down after carefully evaluating the area for any deer. Will getting down cause me to get busted,which I believe was the main question being asked in the original post. If Ive been paying attention to whats around me then no, it wont get me busted "most" of the time. I get down because over the past 26 years, I have had deer wind me, somethat I could recognize, like a litte basket 6 pt. Days or weeks later I have been back up in the same stand with the wind now blowing in my favor and I have witnessed the same6 pt or that Doelook right up at the stand, possibly because they remembered smelling and picking me out, they definately continuoisly watched that tree for movement or anything that would alarm them. Those few early encountersin my bowhunting years changed the way I hunted. I try to give myself a better chance intercepting deer by knowing their bedding and feeding travel routes which allows me to use the wind as a weapon rather than having deer use it as a weapon against me.

I forgot who said it a few pages ahead, but in my opinion the most overlooked scent we omit is from breathing.Takeany of your hunting clothes, even clothes that havent been washed in scent wash, and take a good whiff, now go stand in front of Germ, or any of your hunting buddiesfor example, and let him breathe in your face (lol sorry Germ) for3or 4 hours.No scientific proof from me except my from nose which is far below a whitetails built in sniffing labratory. Your constantly puffing out scent through yourmouth or nose,right into the wind or air stream, its like your own little constant Buck Bomb, except its a Breath Bomb that goes off as long as your in the woods.I know we all cant wear face masks, but by trying to use the wind as a weapon for yourself, I personally think its your best, and free weapon against the Breath Bomb and any other things like Fart Bombs, Burpp Bombs, etc .... wether deer can determine if human breath is a bad thing or not I cant prove, but I can prove using the wind as my own weapon is a definate plus for me.