Is Harvesting Does Really the Right Thing to do?
 

My uncle and I got into a long debate regarding the harvesting of does. He doesn't believe that reducing the doe population actually helps your huntingand here were a couple of the points he made that really got my attention:

1. More does = More deer = More Bucks
2. Bucks will have more does to chase in the fall making them move longer into the season.

We live in Illinois so there always seems to be an abundance of food during the season. What do you guys think..is harvesting does really the right thing to do???

RE: Is Harvesting Does Really the Right Thing to do?
 

Later:D

I need a break[8D]

RE: Is Harvesting Does Really the Right Thing to do?
 

I heard this was not true due to the fact that if there are so many does the bucks do not have to compete to breed.

RE: Is Harvesting Does Really the Right Thing to do?
 

Hmmph along debate you say... I guess I could see that happening. :eek:

RE: Is Harvesting Does Really the Right Thing to do?
 

more does = more deer = more bucks = more mouths to feed. The land can only carry so many deer before they run out of food.

If shooting does really didn't help, and it was the wrong thing to do.......There are a HELL of a lot of outfitters and folks doing it wrong for a long time.....

RE: Is Harvesting Does Really the Right Thing to do?
 

With more does, there is less competition to breed, making bucks actually move less. I see this every year at home, in the UP. We have a buck to doe ratio of anywhere in the neighborhood or 10:1 to 25:1 in some areas. These bucks never even have to leave their home areas to find does to breed, plus you have every buck in that area breeding does, be in spikes or monsters. Two years ago, I had a button buck try to breed a doe because there were no other bucks around.

RE: Is Harvesting Does Really the Right Thing to do?
 

More does, more food sources need to feed them and/or pushing more deer off you property. OR reducing the amount of food in the area for all deer leading to poorer quality deer. If he doesnt believe you, take him to a state park. We have been having to thin the deer on our state parks here in Texas because of the poor health of the the herds. The state has been drawing hunts for the state parks here. The deer taken are scrawny, but that is due to the over population.

You could expain the principle of an ecosystem having a carrying capacity. If that capacity is filled with doe, then the bucks will have to move on or suffer. Kinda like choosing to live in the over populated geto or moving to the burbs.

RE: Is Harvesting Does Really the Right Thing to do?
 

Well in my opinion,, both of his arguements are wrong,, why??

1. The land will only holda certain number of deer. So by shooting more bucks than does, the herd gets out of balance.. Then you have meny more does than bucks, therefore having more fawns per year, and increasing the population, and more mouths to feed. By taking more does, it keeps them closer to a 1 to 1 ratio, which is healthier for the deer, and also better for your hunting during the rut...

2.When you have an out of balance herd, the bucks will actually move less, because of the number of does,, they dont have to travel and move anywhere to find a doe to breed. Therefore there is less sign to pattern, and the bucks stay holed up in the brush with the does that are there. If there is a lower doe population, the bucks will be up on their feet more, trying to find a receptive doe to breed.

Unless you already have a nice ratio of bucks to does, 1 to 1 or 2 to 1, its only going to help by taking some does each year. Depending on your ration how many you should take, but theres not many places anymore that dont need does removed from the herds. These are just my opinions, and if Im wrong I hope someone tells us. But I hope I helped out.

RE: Is Harvesting Does Really the Right Thing to do?
 

Everyone is making good points.

Let me ask you a question........

You're in a room with20 Playboy models that haven't been with a man in a calendar year. You know there's other women in other rooms in the house....but there's NO WAY you can service all the ones you have there. No way. Are you STILL gonna take a chance and start roaming the halls.....on the CHANCE that there's WHAT?......more Playboy models?

Why would a buck go chasing does when his harem is so abundant?

RE: Is Harvesting Does Really the Right Thing to do?
 

you ever read "Desert Solitare"? good book...one part he is talking about how they killed all the wolves out west so they had more mule deer to hunt. thing is, if hunters dont keep animal populations in check, nature always does. no predators on the muleys lead to and explosion of them...which leads to startvation, disease, etc etc...every piece of land has a carrying capacity. alot of our big predators, like wolve and lions etc that prey on deer are pretty much gone. if we dont keep the deer herds in check, they will starve, disease will whipe them out etc...something natural will control them...the limiting factor of deer would be food. if you think about it, we are the only predator on deer in most areas...without us hunters there will be an explosion for a while and then eventually a crash...

and your thinking about the chasing is also wrong...more does=less competition which means a less intense rut...why chase and fight and roam around when theres 20 does to 1 buck to breed??

dang look at that...i learned AND remembered stuff i learned last semester...my professor would be proud

RE: Is Harvesting Does Really the Right Thing to do?
 

This is true, the more does you have, the more deer youll have, therefor the more bucks youll have.

However, wanting an overpopulation of deer is not what you want especially if your in an are where a TON of food isnt available. More deer and more bucks with just rob the other deer of the nutrition they need not letting them grow to their full potential.

Bucks take care of their bodies first, then their antlers. If their bodies arent content then the antlers will not develop to their full potential.

I guess you could look at it that way, but they way i see it is that buck will be able to find does MUCH more easily which means they will be with a doe almost all the time durring the rut weather shes beded or on the move.

With less does you increase the competition among the bucks in your area MAKING them move looking for hot does.


I can see where he might think that havesting does might not be the best thing to do, but IMO,and in the opinion of many others including wildlife biologist that study this year-roud, harvesting does IS a good thing in MOST deer herds.

RE: Is Harvesting Does Really the Right Thing to do?
 

more does = more deer = harder competition for survival = smaller and unhealthier deer = smaller bucks. If you don't harvest some does, you may get sister doe and brother buck mating and screwing up your gene pool.

RE: Is Harvesting Does Really the Right Thing to do?
 

By the way Jeff, excelent analogy! I think this will make sense to EVERY man on this site ;):D

RE: Is Harvesting Does Really the Right Thing to do?
 

No question it will lower the number of available deer. It will increase the numbers of good bucks given time. The problem is on public lands where folks take any buck and the decrease in population may not be offset by better quality animals. In areas anywhere near 25-1 though something is way out of whack and there would be grave danger of some catastrophic event involving disease or malnutrition. I'd want a doe first rule in those areas.

RE: Is Harvesting Does Really the Right Thing to do?
 

This is a great debate/issue, one that I have wondered about often. How is this for a question - What is the deep population in an area is WELL below the carrying capacity of the range (the population could be considered TERRIABLE). Yet there are still several hundred doe tags issued for the area. How does that work in improving the overall population?

RE: Is Harvesting Does Really the Right Thing to do?
 

the only thing i could see them issuing doe tags is to keep the buck:doe ratio in check.i believe stricter laws such as drawing a tag for the designated area would be appropriate

RE: Is Harvesting Does Really the Right Thing to do?
 

This discussion ticks me off to no end.

I cannot imaginethat QDM, bunnyhuggers, farmers or hunters even waste their time on this one.

DON'T FOOL WITH MOTHER NATURE - SHE KNOWS WHAT SHE IS DOING

In a perfect world with no "modern human" hunters. The natural ratio of bucks to doe is 1-1.

Nature gives the average doe 2 off spring (a 50/50 shot @ male or female)

She gets these two fawns to replace deer that have perished during the previous year ( a 50/50 shot @ male or female)

Natural predators don't give a hoot about horns they just catch what they can, Buck or doe.

They thin the herd at an even ratio.

So the healthy NATURAL way for things to go is somewhere around 1-1.

I don't see this as rocket science;I see it as common science.

I thinkeven if left un-hunted the ratio will on occasion get out of whack, at which time Mother Nature steps in with disease and starts all over again.

If we keep it simple and let Mother Nature do what she already knows, everything will be fine.

This is why I am a firm "believer in earn a buck".

Yes it is the pits when a Booner steps out and you don't have your doe yet.

Yes it is the pits if you only have room in the freezer for one deer and you have to shoot a doe.

BUT,

In the big picture of things we as hunters should want to manage the whole herd.

Our job is to balance the number of deer the land can support- This has nothing to do with horns.

If we can do thatthen can get the ratio down around 1 to 1.

Mother Nature will reward us with a bunch of big bucks - Because that’s the way it is SUPPOSED to be any way.

Don't we all dream about finding a big property to hunt, that hasn't been hunted in 20 years.

Sure we do, CUZ, we know Mother Nature will have things in control and there will be big bucks every where.

Shoot the does with equal enthusiasm - that’s what they are there for.

IMHO

It is just that easy.

RE: Is Harvesting Does Really the Right Thing to do?
 

That is not true, 1:1 ratio is just as bad a 1:10 IMO. Bucks would spend all their time fighting, not mating;)
I am a big time supporterof CSDM(common sense deer management);)

RE: Is Harvesting Does Really the Right Thing to do?
 

From QDMA site

" We are told that deer populations should be similar in attributes to those that were managed by wolves, coyotes, mountain lions, and native Americans. A 1:1.3 sex ratio, bucks:does, is probably "natural," based on populations that are controlled primarily by natural predators today. There aren't many of these kinds of populations around but there are enough upon which to make educated guesses about the past. What's the Quality Management's solution to this? Moving from the traditional buck-oriented harvest system allows sex and age structures more like those of pre-Columbian times when predators and primitive man controlled populations."

Tons of good info there, for suppoerters and non supporters.
Doe harvests are important for many reasons thetwo most important in my mind are competitive breeding by bucks and more food. Deer eat an ungodly amount of food daily, (stats to follow) "Nutrient requirements and the amount of food consumed vary with age of the animal, season, and the reproductive cycle. Daily dry matter consumption averages 2% to 4% of live body weight. For adult bucks, daily consumption is greatest in spring and averages 4.4 to 6.4 pounds (2.0 to 2.9 kg) of air-dry food per day.",that ismore than 1000 lbs of food annually, so any reduction in herd only makes for improved habitat (more food)for the remainder.

RE: Is Harvesting Does Really the Right Thing to do?
 

Johnny...Evidently your uncle doesn't raise cattle....Put 20 cattle in a 20 acre pen to fend for themselves and they won't be healthy...Put 5 in there and there is enough to go around and then some...

Now..Real world...We own 3 farms in eastern NC, heavily populated with deer, we raise corn, soybeans, peanuts, wheat...Plenty to eat, so food isn't a problem during the growing season, but come February...It is a problem...

30 years ago, I wouldn't kill a doe...One evening I watched as 48 deer moved into one of our cut corn fields...None of these deer had antlers!!! It was November, I was in college and I thought, this is crazy, I like deer meat...Two of the deer didn't leave the field (Well they did....I took them for a ride in the back of my pickup)...

At any rate...I started killing does, for several years it made no difference...And I killed a ton, even got permits and my brother's help....Frankly some years I killed 15 or so, got tired of skinning them and giving them away...About 15 years ago my nieces, nephews etc got old enough to hunt, so I had more help...We kill 40-50 deer a year...Mainly does...We now see 8-12 deer in a field, but for the past 4-5 years we are seeing more bucks, bigger bucks and bucks actually chasing does...We still have plenty of deer, but they have more and better food to choose from because there is less competition....Plus, with a better buck/doe ratio, the dominant bucks are the ones doing the breeding, so the better genes are naturally passed on...Before "any buck" could breed, because the big boys were doing all they were physically able to do...

Shoot what you want to, but I'm thinking about starting a new organization.....DoeBusters...Each week I'll show you how to kill does and at the end of each show have a great new recipe showing how to eat does!!!:D

RE: Is Harvesting Does Really the Right Thing to do?
 

New I have read 1:2, but who knows:D

RE: Is Harvesting Does Really the Right Thing to do?
 

SON OF A............

I've found my calling!! (need a prostaffer?);)

Sorry.....what am I thinking. Sorry, Mobo.....no doubt you're the better candidate!

:D

RE: Is Harvesting Does Really the Right Thing to do?
 

Quick NC logic, here.....but I guess you guys are telling me that a doe has a higher propensity to give birth to a doe fawn.....OR....that predators like buck meat, more.

Maybe does have a longer shelf life.

Which is it?

RE: Is Harvesting Does Really the Right Thing to do?
 

The Shadow knowsssssssss...............

RE: Is Harvesting Does Really the Right Thing to do?
 

Personally in a completely natural envorionment i would think there would be more bucks then does. I would think does would be easier targets for wolfs and predators...

RE: Is Harvesting Does Really the Right Thing to do?
 

I think 1, LOL I heard the predators eat the antlers;)

Book called Deer Management 101 by Grant Woods Good read IMO

Here is MI logic, when the Rut starts and the does kick the fawn males out for a bit they are on their own. I would guess this makes them easy targets

_dan had made post awhile back about area he hunted that was not hunted by humans. If I recall he said the ratio was like 1:3. maybe he can chime in

RE: Is Harvesting Does Really the Right Thing to do?
 

The chances of a fawn being a buck or doe is DEFINITELYNOT ALWAYS 50/50.

It all depends on the genes of the parents. What the recessive and dominant traits are determines many things about your deer.

If you've ever tried to have a baby boy but you end up having 10 little girls, ya ever wonder why? Because you and/or your wifes gender genes are femaledominant, and male recessive.

The only time it can truly be classified as 50/50is when one parent is male recessive/female dominant, and one parent is male dominant/female recessive.

RE: Is Harvesting Does Really the Right Thing to do?
 

That's what I've always read as well.

Bucks are so worn down after the breeding season they make easy targets for predators.

RE: Is Harvesting Does Really the Right Thing to do?
 

Do it this way. Shoot a doe, skin it, take the hindquarters and tenderloins, put them on ice, and take them to a local food bank. Then go back into the woods, hunt, and feel good about yourself that you just helped feed a few poor for the week.

Another thing.....food banks don't care if you tagged your deer out or not.

RE: Is Harvesting Does Really the Right Thing to do?
 

Oh thats nice...just dont tag your deer? [:'(][:@]

RE: Is Harvesting Does Really the Right Thing to do?
 

Doe study:

RE: Is Harvesting Does Really the Right Thing to do?
 

Actually some scholarly studies show that on average it is not a 50/50 ration of bucks to does, it is more like 60/40. I know University of Florida and I think Auburntooboth have these results.

Ok, now from personal experience. Yes, bucks seem to move more in a high population area (If you don't hunt in a area with 45+ deer per sq mile, then don't comment!)The club my friend,brother, and dad are ina club that had a reported 500 bucks(No spikes) killed during the 9-day muzzleloder season, which is during the rut. They killed more bucks in muzzleloder season than the11 week rifle season and 4 week bow combined(350). But that's just myopinion that they move more. You actually have to have the large sustainable food capacity and management, which mostregions don't have.

RE: Is Harvesting Does Really the Right Thing to do?
 

Alright guys you are making this way to complicated.

Lets talk animals in general.

Lets talk top of the foor chian stuff - but -just animals.

Grizzly bear - no natural enimies 1 to 1 ratio

African lion - no natural enemies 1 to 1

Indian Tiger - no natural enimies 1 to 1

These are creatures that multiply naturally to replace ones that have died off.

Hell even pine trees are 1 to 1

Natures way is there are enough guys and girls to go around.

Nobody should get left out.

Survival of the fittest sure the big guys beat hell out of the little guys and get all the girls they want YES

Do they get ALL the girls NO - Them little pencil neck rascals get their share

The system is not designed that the dominate animal getsALL the girls.

If that were to happen after a while you would have almost a cloning environment and all the Alpha males would be virtually identical in power and @ that point KILL each other CUZ they were too evenly matched.

The pecking order serves a good pourpose.

The big guy gets the most and he doesn't have to kill himself or any other males to do it.

The # 2 guy toted an ass whippin from #1 so he slides down the road a piece and takes some out of the #3 guys stash.

Everybody gets a little and nobody has to die to get some.

A few black eyes, a few lumps and bruises, But in the end everybody gets a little and life goes on.

Natures way works : That is why we are here

RE: Is Harvesting Does Really the Right Thing to do?
 

I havent read all the posts but Ill throw in my 2 cents...Why does male only harvest work for turkeys but not for deer? In both species the males fight for dominance and extablish a pecking order. the males also mate with multiple females. Why does it work so well for one species and not the other?

(And dont try to throw in the argument about fall turkey season.The few hens harvested then does not even compare to the number of males taken in the spring)

RE: Is Harvesting Does Really the Right Thing to do?
 

I still wanna see some proof to the claim that more does (than bucks)is "natural".

RE: Is Harvesting Does Really the Right Thing to do?
 

Only thing I can think of is turkeys have far more natural predators than whitetails.

RE: Is Harvesting Does Really the Right Thing to do?
 

I Can tell you in MI we have way less turkey hunters. We can shoot both in the fall. Good question. We also have to apply for permits.

RE: Is Harvesting Does Really the Right Thing to do?
 

Maybe when the turkey population catches up to the deer population we can find out!

RE: Is Harvesting Does Really the Right Thing to do?
 

Pretty sure that proof doesn't exist. Most of the studies and theories seem to be more scientific guesses than anything. imo

RE: Is Harvesting Does Really the Right Thing to do?
 

Yes that is true and it is what keeps the population in check. But what about the sex ratio. I dont see any biologists complaining about the health and unbalance of the turkey population. Does it really affect deer that much?