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RE: Is Harvesting Does Really the Right Thing to do?
Things that make you go hmmmmm.....
I'm going to investigate that on the QTM site.;) |
RE: Is Harvesting Does Really the Right Thing to do?
1. More does = More deer = More Bucks This is true but we must be sure not to go over the carrying capacity. Which in several cases some areas could definitely support more deer. I know for a fact that there is just as much food here in Northern MO as there is in Illinois but not near as many deer. But the MO biologists keep emphasizing overpopulation. I think in many cases more does tags mean more money for the state. 2. Bucks will have more does to chase in the fall making them move longer into the season. Quite the contrary bucks will move less because theyll have all the does they need in one location. |
RE: Is Harvesting Does Really the Right Thing to do?
ORIGINAL: drhntr178 ORIGINAL: NEW61375 ORIGINAL: drhntr178 I havent read all the posts but Ill throw in my 2 cents...Why does male only harvest work for turkeys but not for deer? In both species the males fight for dominance and extablish a pecking order. the males also mate with multiple females. Why does it work so well for one species and not the other? (And dont try to throw in the argument about fall turkey season.The few hens harvested then does not even compare to the number of males taken in the spring) |
RE: Is Harvesting Does Really the Right Thing to do?
Here is the question
How many jakes are being shot? I will ask DNR this week. I am interested to know |
RE: Is Harvesting Does Really the Right Thing to do?
Wouldnt the bucks be helathier if they had all the does they needed without having to compete with other bucks. Not near the stress from fighting and no running around like crazy during the rut. Just another thought.
Maybe more does=healthier bucks.... any arguments on that one. |
RE: Is Harvesting Does Really the Right Thing to do?
Stress from breeding is pretty intense too. Imagine you "bred" up to 20 different females repeatedly over a month. First of all, you da man!! Second, you probably wouldn't have enough energy to tie your shoe.
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RE: Is Harvesting Does Really the Right Thing to do?
ORIGINAL: NEW61375 Stress from breeding is pretty intense too. Imagine you "bred" up to 20 different females repeatedly over a month. First of all, you da man!! Second, you probably wouldn't have enough energy to tie your shoe. |
RE: Is Harvesting Does Really the Right Thing to do?
ORIGINAL: Germ Here is the question How many jakes are being shot? I will ask DNR this week. I am interested to know Adult gobblers- 36587 juveniles gobblers- 11022 hens- 849 Adult gobblers make up over 70% of the harvest. Males equaling over 95% MO has some of the best turkey hunting in the country. Facts like this make me question the whole deer have to be 1:1 or 1:2 to be healthy. |
RE: Is Harvesting Does Really the Right Thing to do?
ORIGINAL: Germ _dan had made post awhile back about area he hunted that was not hunted by humans. If I recall he said the ratio was like 1:3. maybe he can chime in The area that Germ is refering to is about 50-75 sq miles in size. From what I have seen and what my brothers have told me they have seen I come up with a ratio of 1:1.5, max 1:2. The first time I hunted this area was in 2004 and can gurantee that in the last century there have been MAYBE 6 people in there. This area has lots of wolves, bears and deer. Plus a few moose. So, I would consider this to be as natural of an environment as I have ever seen. Unspoiled and uninterupted. Gotta go install windows on the new cabin.......back in an hour.:) |
RE: Is Harvesting Does Really the Right Thing to do?
Maybe more does=healthier bucks.... any arguments on that one. |
RE: Is Harvesting Does Really the Right Thing to do?
Check that......
Quickly thinking about that.....The entire herd would be affected adversely if the inferior bucks were allowed to breed as much as the dominant/superior geneticbucks. |
RE: Is Harvesting Does Really the Right Thing to do?
ORIGINAL: GMMAT Check that...... Quickly thinking about that.....The entire herd would be affected adversely if the inferior bucks were allowed to breed as much as the dominant/superior geneticbucks. |
RE: Is Harvesting Does Really the Right Thing to do?
Really? (and I am trying to learn, here)
So.....what's the purpose (nature's) of the dominant bucks doing most of the breeding (in a perfect setting)? Around here.....the little guys steer clear of one guy in my woods.....lest they want an ass whoopin. I'd say nature has it in for him to pass his genes along FIRST. If the herd numbers were in check (again...in a perfectly natural environment).....the natural selection process would be alive and well. |
RE: Is Harvesting Does Really the Right Thing to do?
ORIGINAL: GMMAT Really? (and I am trying to learn, here) So.....what's the purpose (nature's) of the dominant bucks doing most of the breeding (in a perfect setting)? Around here.....the little guys steer clear of one guy in my woods.....lest they want an ass whoopin. I'd say nature has it in for him to pass his genes along FIRST. If the herd numbers were in check (again...in a perfectly natural environment).....the natural selection process would be alive and well. |
RE: Is Harvesting Does Really the Right Thing to do?
ORIGINAL: drhntr178 ORIGINAL: GMMAT Really? (and I am trying to learn, here) So.....what's the purpose (nature's) of the dominant bucks doing most of the breeding (in a perfect setting)? Around here.....the little guys steer clear of one guy in my woods.....lest they want an ass whoopin. I'd say nature has it in for him to pass his genes along FIRST. If the herd numbers were in check (again...in a perfectly natural environment).....the natural selection process would be alive and well. Who knows I used to think that also, but I was proven wrong. The little bucks do a pile of breeding. Plus 50% genes come from the mother;) |
RE: Is Harvesting Does Really the Right Thing to do?
ORIGINAL: drhntr178 I havent read all the posts but Ill throw in my 2 cents...Why does male only harvest work for turkeys but not for deer? In both species the males fight for dominance and extablish a pecking order. the males also mate with multiple females. Why does it work so well for one species and not the other? I don't believe birds will over graze a particular piece of land. They just fly some where else. If the animals in question don't over burden their food sources then. More hens= More Turkeys = More gobblers. Everybody loves turkeys, so it is a good thing. The flock basically grows out of control. And flies to new territory as needed. Something deer would have a hard time with. |
RE: Is Harvesting Does Really the Right Thing to do?
In a pefectly natural environment......no overpopulation.......I would "think" the more dominant bucks (and they're dominant for a reason) would do most of the breeding. THEIR offspring would (naturally) be MORE "dominant" than the offspring of the less dominant animals.....and, therefore, would be next in line to the throne....or next in line to do "some" of the "other" breeding.
Natural selection....in its purest form. Is this flawed logic? |
RE: Is Harvesting Does Really the Right Thing to do?
In other words......wouldn't it be rare (in a perfectly natural environment) for an inferior buck to do hardly ANY breeding?
Wouldn't the inferior bucks bloodlines eventually die out? |
RE: Is Harvesting Does Really the Right Thing to do?
ORIGINAL: cptleo1 ORIGINAL: drhntr178 I havent read all the posts but Ill throw in my 2 cents...Why does male only harvest work for turkeys but not for deer? In both species the males fight for dominance and extablish a pecking order. the males also mate with multiple females. Why does it work so well for one species and not the other? I don't believe birds will over graze a particular piece of land. They just fly some where else. If the animals in question don't over burden their food sources then. More hens= More Turkeys = More gobblers. Everybody loves turkeys, so it is a good thing. The flock basically grows out of control. And flies to new territory as needed. Something deer would have a hard time with. And am i the only one who has not seen turkeys flying to relocate due to overcrowding. :eek: |
RE: Is Harvesting Does Really the Right Thing to do?
ORIGINAL: drhntr178 I havent read all the posts but Ill throw in my 2 cents...Why does male only harvest work for turkeys but not for deer? In both species the males fight for dominance and extablish a pecking order. the males also mate with multiple females. Why does it work so well for one species and not the other? I think there are a lot more predators fro turkey than deer, and you never hear about a person being killed in a car turkey crash just my 2 cents Good topic |
RE: Is Harvesting Does Really the Right Thing to do?
ORIGINAL: drhntr178 ORIGINAL: cptleo1 ORIGINAL: drhntr178 I havent read all the posts but Ill throw in my 2 cents...Why does male only harvest work for turkeys but not for deer? In both species the males fight for dominance and extablish a pecking order. the males also mate with multiple females. Why does it work so well for one species and not the other? I don't believe birds will over graze a particular piece of land. They just fly some where else. If the animals in question don't over burden their food sources then. More hens= More Turkeys = More gobblers. Everybody loves turkeys, so it is a good thing. The flock basically grows out of control. And flies to new territory as needed. Something deer would have a hard time with. And am i the only one who has not seen turkeys flying to relocate due to overcrowding. :eek: |
RE: Is Harvesting Does Really the Right Thing to do?
shooting does to keep the doe to buck ratio even is one reason another would be that there are to many deer for the carring capacity of the land.The later reason would be the killing of bucksand doe's as long as the ratio stays at an even keel.
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RE: Is Harvesting Does Really the Right Thing to do?
IMO you can't compare turkeys to deer.
But for the sake of the thread......Maybe our thinking of turkey populations is along the same lines of old traditional deer management. More hens/does=more turekys/deer.......and don't we have a problem with the deer populations in certain areas????? I believe, once turkey populations reach capacity, management strategies will change. |
RE: Is Harvesting Does Really the Right Thing to do?
ORIGINAL: rankbull ORIGINAL: drhntr178 I havent read all the posts but Ill throw in my 2 cents...Why does male only harvest work for turkeys but not for deer? In both species the males fight for dominance and extablish a pecking order. the males also mate with multiple females. Why does it work so well for one species and not the other? I think there are a lot more predators fro turkey than deer, and you never hear about a person being killed in a car turkey crash just my 2 cents Good topic |
RE: Is Harvesting Does Really the Right Thing to do?
ORIGINAL: GMMAT In a pefectly natural environment......no overpopulation.......I would "think" the more dominant bucks (and they're dominant for a reason) would do most of the breeding. THEIR offspring would (naturally) be MORE "dominant" than the offspring of the less dominant animals.....and, therefore, would be next in line to the throne....or next in line to do "some" of the "other" breeding. Natural selection....in its purest form. Is this flawed logic? There are only so many hours in a day. A doe's peak breeding time is only a matter of hours and a man can't be everywhere @ once. So the the #2 guy and so on get a little here and there just buy being in the right place @ the right time. The gene pool has to be continually expanding. Thats why nature lets some of lets say smaller guys to get a little. With only one sire for the whole tribe, after a while all the cousins start looking a little wierd. Although size, horns and fighting ability get you top the top, the herd needs other things. The #2 or#3 guy might not be able to fight worth spit, but he has the most sensitive nose of any deer to come down the pike in 100 yrs, This needs to get into the gene pool anddoes - while the big guy isn't watching, His fawns still won't be much as fighters , but their better noses will keep them alive in a situation where muscles would do no good. Mean while the #6 deer who can't fight and is blind as a bat gets a little by accident. His breeding really makes no difference cause his fawns can't see the wolf that is about to eat them, mean while the #2 guys fawnns have smelled the wolf long ago and are safely GONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Because Miss good nose fawn got away, she has a chance to give #1 a littleand now we have a fighter with a sense of smell. Thats why everybody gets a little. |
RE: Is Harvesting Does Really the Right Thing to do?
ORIGINAL: _Dan IMO you can't compare turkeys to deer. But for the sake of the thread......Maybe our thinking of turkey populations is along the same lines of old traditional deer management. More hens/does=more turekys/deer.......and don't we have a problem with the deer populations in certain areas????? I believe, once turkey populations reach capacity, management strategies will change. So let me rephrase my question: Why do biologists not worry about the sex ratio/imbalance of turkey but think it would be detrimental to the ' health' of the deer herd? |
RE: Is Harvesting Does Really the Right Thing to do?
ORIGINAL: _Dan IMO you can't compare turkeys to deer. But for the sake of the thread......Maybe our thinking of turkey populations is along the same lines of old traditional deer management. More hens/does=more turekys/deer.......and don't we have a problem with the deer populations in certain areas????? I believe, once turkey populations reach capacity, management strategies will change. This is a great thead. I must admit I'm from the old school where does were sacred. This thread has given me much food for thought. Thanks y'all... |
RE: Is Harvesting Does Really the Right Thing to do?
Dang, you guys have been busy...I spent too much time on here today, I am getting behind on my work...:D
The turkey answer....Once hens are bred they go to the nest and lay an egg, they do this every day for about 2 weeks, they lay about a dozen eggs, during this time they roost as normal in trees....Once they finish laying a clutch of eggs they go on the nest and stay there, day and night for about 28 days, until the eggs hatch, now even though the eggs were laid over a 2 week period, they all hatch within 12 hours or so of each other...So the loss of hen turkeys runs almost 40% in the spring because of predators while they are on the nest....Many turkeys are also lost every year during hay season they get run over by the mower conditioner... This is why many states do not have a fall season, and if they do, hens are often excluded.... Like I said earlier, killing does made a hugh difference on our farms...I know you can go too far, as most states did during the Depression, my dad was a market hunter at that time....But...last year 25,000 deer were killed on the highways in NC...If you live in a state with a high deer population, there is nothing wrong with taking does. |
RE: Is Harvesting Does Really the Right Thing to do?
ORIGINAL: nchawkeye Dang, you guys have been busy...I spent too much time on here today, I am getting behind on my work...:D The turkey answer....Once hens are bred they go to the nest and lay an egg, they do this every day for about 2 weeks, they lay about a dozen eggs, during this time they roost as normal in trees....Once they finish laying a clutch of eggs they go on the nest and stay there, day and night for about 21 days, until the eggs hatch, now even though the eggs were laid over a 2 week period, they all hatch within 12 hours or so of each other...So the loss of hen turkeys runs almost 40% in the spring because of predators while they are on the nest....Many turkeys are also lost every year during hay season they get run over by the mower conditioner... This is why many states do not have a fall season, and if they do, hens are often excluded.... |
RE: Is Harvesting Does Really the Right Thing to do?
ORIGINAL: GMMAT SON OF A............ I've found my calling!! (need a prostaffer?);) Sorry.....what am I thinking. Sorry, Mobo.....no doubt you're the better candidate! :D |
RE: Is Harvesting Does Really the Right Thing to do?
Given, mobo;)
I'm not so sure this is correct thinking.......though I could be wrong... The #2 or#3 guy might not be able to fight worth spit, Good discussion....and I admit I don't know. |
RE: Is Harvesting Does Really the Right Thing to do?
Nice civil debate, I sent a few emails out.
1 DNr Buddy 1 N_W_T_F will post here when I get some answers |
RE: Is Harvesting Does Really the Right Thing to do?
Hell I'm not even debating!!:D
I'm trying to learn something.;) |
RE: Is Harvesting Does Really the Right Thing to do?
From a Biologist, Emailed N-W-T-Fyesterday. I am a memeber and this is a fine organzation. Top notch IMO
They help me a lot 6 years ago get Turkeys on our farm. We now have a hunting population with some nice birds. Gary,[/align][/align]As with deer, there are about equal numbers of males and females at birth (hatching) with turkeys. Unlike the situation with deer in most places, though, there are still plenty of predators that help regulate turkey populations. Hens are especially vulnerable to predation during the nesting period, because they stay on the ground overnight all through the 28 days of incubation. Nationwide, hen mortality averages about 40 percent, with most occurring during nesting. On the whole, relatively few adult gobblers die as a result of predation; hunting accounts for most gobbler mortality. Research has shown that gobbler mortality due to hunting averages about 40 percent in many states, resulting in about equal mortality for hens and gobblers, more or less the 1:1 ratio that many deer managers strive for. So to sum things up, hen mortality due to predation and gobbler mortality due to hunting keep many turkey populations at approximately 1:1 without thespecial management strategiesthat are oftenrecommended for deer herds.[/align][/align] Tom Hughes NWTF Senior Wildlife Biologist 803-637-3106 [email protected] [/align] |
RE: Is Harvesting Does Really the Right Thing to do?
that makes sense
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RE: Is Harvesting Does Really the Right Thing to do?
So my popcorn is running out..what's the new concensus?????
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RE: Is Harvesting Does Really the Right Thing to do?
Wow! I come back a day or two later to see if i get any responses and I have 8 pages of stuff to read!!! Maybe I'll just email this link to my uncle so he can see why his theories aren't right. Thanks guys!!!!
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RE: Is Harvesting Does Really the Right Thing to do?
Lets take a look at Pennsylvania. Back when I started hunting in the late 80's, it was nothing to see a herd of 30 deer running in a pack. Out of them a basket rack 5-6 point was considered a great buck. The weight on these deer would have been 125 lbs was a great sized deer. Now lets look at PA deer at present day after the anter restriction was put into place. A 5-6 point buck isn't even looked at twice by most vetern hunters, doe are now weighing 125 lbs and buck are hitting 160 or higher. You may only see 5 to 10 deer a day, but the quality of the deer are great!
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RE: Is Harvesting Does Really the Right Thing to do?
ORIGINAL: NEW61375 ORIGINAL: drhntr178 I havent read all the posts but Ill throw in my 2 cents...Why does male only harvest work for turkeys but not for deer? In both species the males fight for dominance and extablish a pecking order. the males also mate with multiple females. Why does it work so well for one species and not the other? (And dont try to throw in the argument about fall turkey season.The few hens harvested then does not even compare to the number of males taken in the spring) |
RE: Is Harvesting Does Really the Right Thing to do?
My friend believes the same as your uncle.He just don't understand why he can have 20 does in the field every night,but once the rut comes in he never sees any good bucks chasing them.He has so many does the maturebucks don't need to chase and hunt for a receptive does.The does seek them instead.
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